Melbourne Punx Forum : Hello and Goodbye

    Psycho 78, Oct 16, 2008

    If it really left andy “…a good deal of time to do other things” one would expect he would, in fact, do other things. However this is clearly not the case as we can see he spends all day sitting on his arse at his computer, finding any excuse he can to demonstrate that everyone’s a nazi…except him.

Bah humbug: in early August I received an email from ‘Psycho 78’ asking me if I was responsible for a posting on the Melbourne Punx Forum implying that I thought she was a slut who deserved to be raped. The email was prompted by the following message in a thread titled ‘Surprise Sex Attack VIC shows Sep 08’ (shane, Aug 18, 2008):

Andy SlackBastard, Aug 22, 2008

Listen you bitches. Women have raped men before, men rape men and women rape women. So why do you hetrosexual [sic] women take offence to [sic] the band`s name? All kinds [sic] of people get raped, not just women. And all kinds [sic] of people commit rape, not just men. Why is the name in bad taste? No one else finds it offensive, just hetro sexual [sic] sluts like you fruit salad and psycho 78. I reckon if a woman gets raped then she deservses [sic] it anyway. The way some sluts dress today with their mini skirts tells me that they`re just asking for it. If you dress like a slut then you ARE a slut and you want it. You only cry rape after sex because you`re embaressed [sic] about being a horny slut so you tell everyone that he raped you. I reckon that this band sound cool and [I] might go along and see them. Hopefully there`ll be some young slut at the gig for me to pick up.

Pretty daft and not really in keeping with my written comments generally, but whoever posted it — and judging by its contents, it was written by a young boy — obviously, if rather ineptly, wanted to create some kind of bad impression. And I would have ignored it — as I have other rather unsubtle online impersonations in the past — if I’d not received the above email. So: just to clear the air, I joined the Melbourne Punx Forum.

“This forum was created at the start of the century to [accommodate] thoughts and discussion between participants [in] the Melbourne punk community”; that is, about 20 years after I started listening to punk music. Most of the discussion concerns upcoming shows and local gossip, with occasional forays into other subject matter. The level and range of opinion is largely indistinguishable from what you might find on any other disco forum, perhaps the only exception being the pronounced conservatism of most commentators.

Aside from an introductory message intended to establish some facts about my participation on the Forum, I made one other post: Anti-fascist Activist Killed in Moscow (October 14, 2008). This simply re-published a recent article by The Other Russia concerning the murder of a SHARP skinhead in Moscow. The stabbing to death of Fedor Filatov (Filatov «Fedjay» Feodor Vasilevich) on October 10 outside his apartment appears to have gone completely unremarked in the English-language press, and has met with mostly indifference on the part of the handful of users of the Melbourne Punx Forum who have commented on this story.


    Nowave: “No offence but honestly who gives a shit about some skinhead in Russia.”

The following comment is my final reply to Fruitsalad:

I’m having trouble following your wordsalad. To repeat: I posted an article on the murder of a Russian skinhead and anti-fascist. Your initial response was to assert that this incident needed to be placed in perspective. That perspective is provided, you wrote, by way of the following:

    it’s not good when there is any sort of violence;
    racists would be violent even if they weren’t ideologically motivated;
    someone deleted you as one of their friends on myspace because they said you ‘practiced homosexuality’;
    you’re not cying about this sad reversal of fortune, nor crossing your arms or stamping your feet in pointless protest;
    everyone is entitled to their opinion;
    there is something wrong when people stop other people having a contrary opinion;
    it’s sad to read about the murder but;
    there are more pressing issues in OUR country and;
    focusing on this sort of stuff is like Nazis who focus on Europe when they’ve never visited it.

You then provide links to articles on how: a new screening system at Melbourne airport will see through passengers’ clothes; a number of radio shows on ABC are being axed; “Aboriginal children will have to wait for up to three years for the NSW Government to hire five new employees to fight sexual abuse in the state’s west”; and “Christian schools in NSW are teaching creationism or “intelligent design” with little or no monitoring of whether it is being improperly included in science classes in high schools.”

Finally, you opine that “Sex abuse is more important [than] a Russian to our country” and that if I were “serious” I’d “focus on us”.

In subsequent postings, you proceed to outline your thoughts on the meaning and causes of (interpersonal) violence, racism, homophobia, violence, racism and homophobia in contemporary Russia, fascism, the nature of contemporary Australian society — and what you believe to be the most pressing issues facing it — and more besides.

There’s a number of obvious rejoinders to be made, I’ve made them before, I’ll make them again in case you missed them.

First, there’s little in what you’ve written that addresses the subject of the article. What you have remarked upon is demonstrably wrong. Thus you ask: “Why aren’t you [trumpeting] gay and lesbian rights in Russia, when homophobic violence is more [prevalent] there [than neo-Nazi violence is]?” (You also state “If Russians are so interesting to you, move to Russia”, which I think is totally awesome.) You provide no evidence, and presumably know little, if anything, concerning comparative rates of ‘homophobic’ vs. ‘neo-Nazi’ violence in Russia. In any case, the fact that other acts of violence occur, and that these may also be condemned, does not, in and of itself, render the reportage of Fedor’s murder an invalid act — which is what you’re none-too-subtly implying.

Further, I’m not ‘trumpeting’ anything: I’ve simply re-posted an article by ‘The Other Russia’ on the recent murder of a skinhead in Moscow. In reaction, you — for reasons best known to yourself but I assume having less to do with the act itself and more to do with your own misplaced loyalties — have jumped on your high horse and proceeded to gallop across the tundra like a demented Cossack being chased by one of Makhno’s partisans.

In addition, and as I’ve already indicated, in reality, I have referred to ‘homophobic’ violence in Russia, as well as the fact that neo-Nazis practice and advocate extreme forms of violence against homosexuals, and that many anti-fascists oppose this form of violence just as they do other forms of neo-Nazi assault and propaganda. Beyond this, your statement presumes that merely remarking upon, once, the murder of a skinhead, can and should be interpreted as part of a campaign on my behalf to obscure the truth concerning levels of homophobic violence in Russia. This is a highly tendentious argument: if you don’t understand why already, there’s little point in my explaining how.

Secondly, what you have written consist of banalities, trivialities and a large school of Etrumeus teres. This remains the case, however much you pout, cross your arms, or stamp your little feet.

Regarding your subsequent comments:

1) “You’re not listening to me – you’re measuring everything up to your ideology of coherence.”

This, ironically enough, is a good example of an incoherent statement — one which I’ll cheerfully let go through to the keeper. And I don’t know who “the skinheads” you refer to are, but I suppose I should admire your telepathic abilities: I suggest that in future you use them for Good instead of Evil.

“With militant antifascists it’s always about [winning] rather then listening and coexisting. Not so different from fascists, eh?”

To someone with an analysis as shallow as your own, no; the difference between fascism and groups, projects and individuals opposed to it escapes you — and likely always will. Here’s how one network describes its approach:

Fascism is a violent ideology. Throughout history, fascists have used violence against those who oppose them. Antifa is a continuation of the antifascist tradition of confronting fascism physically when it is necessary. Physical confrontation is only one of our tactics though, we do not aim to fetishise it as one tactic above all others, nor will we allow a hierarchy to develop based on the kudos of street-fighting. If an individual member feels unable to engage on this level they are no less worthy as an anti-fascist than any other member of the group, however those with a moral problem regarding this issue should be advised that this is not the group for them.

And as Durruti put it: “Fascism is not to be debated. It is to be destroyed.”

2) OK, so, “People who commit racist violence nearly always have histories of other types of violence”; further, this suggests one “needs to consider the role of violence in attacks before the ideological context”.

A few points.

You’re collapsing the distinction between the violent activities of organised fascist and neo-Nazi groups and movements, on the one hand, and racialised violence, on the other. Further, the specific nature of fascist movements in post-Soviet Russia. On this subject in particular — fascist movements in post-Soviet Russia — a lot has been written — none of which, seemingly, you’re familiar with. A recent, short documentary on the subject of neo-Nazi violence in contemporary Russia is available here.

The point being: to assert that the murder of Feodor might more simply be explained by reference to the psychopathology of racist individuals is mistaken. Nevertheless, I am in fact familiar with this methodology. A research paper by the FBI (John R Schafer and Joe Navarro, ‘The Seven-Stage Hate Model: The Psychopathology of Hate Groups’, FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, March 2003, Volume 72, Number 3) on the subject of bonehead violence:

During a 7-year FBI investigation of skinhead groups in Southern California between 1992 and 1999, specific patterns emerged. Skinhead groups typically consist of uneducated, young, white males between the ages of 13 and 24 who have no long-term prospects for success. Although many come from single-parent, dysfunctional families, some exceptions exist. For example, members of the Western Hammerskins in Hemet, California, had high school educations and came from two-parent, middle-class families. Further examination revealed that both parents made long, daily commutes to work in Los Angeles and left their teenage children unsupervised. The lack of parental supervision and guidance spawned personal insecurities similar to those found in skinheads who come from dysfunctional, single-parent environments.

Fortunately, most skinhead groups are not well organized and lack the leadership structure found in the majority of street gangs engaged in “for-profit” criminal activities. However, the Western Hammerskins group has a stronger leadership hierarchy than most skinhead groups, and it boasts a very active recruitment program. Potential members receive a recruitment package, which includes a swastika armband, a T-shirt with white supremacist slogans, white supremacist literature and band stickers, and other supremacist materials. Recruiters also pass out business cards embossed with the Western Hammerskins’ logo and the recruiter’s name and telephone number. The group’s higher educational level may explain the sophistication of its recruitment techniques.

Skinhead groups subdivide into two categories: criminally motivated and hate motivated. Criminally motivated skinhead groups spend most of their time engaged in for-profit criminal activities, such as drug sales and burglaries. Incidental to their criminal activity, they commit hate crimes. The San Fernando Valley Peckerwoods (SVP) in California was a criminally motivated skinhead group. SVP members primarily sold meth-amphetamines and committed residential burglaries. Periodically, SVP members attacked minorities with weapons and, on one occasion, placed packages resembling bombs near an apartment complex where African-Americans lived. Members intended for the fake bombs to frighten current residents to relocate and to discourage other African-American families from moving into the complex…

Another recent paper on the subject of yoof hate crime states:

Data on convicted hate crime perpetrators have revealed that many of the more serious forms of hate violence are committed by individuals with prior criminal histories, those who are economically marginalized, and those who have a propensity for substance abuse. In addition, violent perpetrators evidenced characteristics that predict antisocial and recidivistic behavior. However, little is known about the majority of hate crime perpetrators in terms of psychological or demographic status, including factors such as economic level, religion, and national origin. Still less is known about these characteristics in juvenile hate crime offenders.

Within the psychiatric community, there is disagreement about whether extreme racism can be considered symptomatic of psychopathology. Some have proposed that extreme racism is a serious mental illness and have considered whether DSM should include a diagnosis of delusional disorder—racist type. Others have cautioned against turning a group’s extreme views into psychopathology for fear that the view that a hate crime perpetrator may be “not guilty by reason of insanity” will undermine the idea of culpability. Regardless of the diagnostic implications, the various forms of prejudice need to be considered not only as a social problem, but as a mental health issue worthy of significant attention. ~ Annie Steinberg, Jane Brooks and Tariq Remtulla, ‘Youth Hate Crimes: Identification, Prevention, and Intervention’, The American Journal of Psychiatry

You admonish me to: “Understand how understanding the dynamics of violence has everything to do with Fedor’s murder. This is very simple deductive logic.” And as HL Mencken once wrote: “Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers”. In other words, while ‘understanding the dynamics of violence’ is no doubt useful when it comes to examining violent incidents — murder, rape and other forms of violent assault, whenever and wherever these occur — it does nothing to explain the re-emergence of fascist and neo-Nazi movements in Russia, nor the fact that oppositional movements are being targeted for extermination.

3) “So you agree [that to place violence in context is useful], yet you disagree in the above point? You’re contradicting yourself.”

The contradiction is your own. There is no contradiction between, on the one hand, acknowledging that ‘violence’, in order to be understood, should — as is the case with any other social phenomenon — be placed in context; and, on the other, arguing that the context for Fedor’s murder is not a simple matter of considering the supposed fact that “people who commit racist violence nearly always have histories of other types of violence”. If Fedor’s murder, and the previous murders of anti-fascists in Russia — Timur Kacharava (13.11.2005); Alexander Ryukhin (16.4.2006); Ovanes Ajriumian (20.10.2007); Ivan Yelin (15.01.2007); Ilya Borodaenko (02.07.2007); among others — can be explained (away) by reference to this fact, then the re-emergence of fascist and neo-Nazi movements in Russia could be explained by the sudden emergence of a cohort of yoof with violent criminal histories.

A former Moscow resident writes:

In the face of this rash of violence, the Russian-language media has switched gears from its intermittent blasé coverage of racially-motivated murders as troublesome individual acts to searching for some explanation for the specter of ethnic violence that threatens dark-skinned migrants and visitors to the capital…

[E]thnic violence, like many facets of Russian society and politics, should be put in its pan-European and global contexts. Specifically, it is useful to think about violence against migrant workers from former outposts of imperial Russia and the Soviet Union as part of a larger post-imperial hangover, comparable, though not the identical, to the development of xenophobia and racist attacks against migrants in London or Paris. That is, the story of ethnic violence in Moscow should not be disentangled from the story of imperial expansion, Russian chauvinism (including in the Soviet period) and bloody wars in the Caucasus. This framing also highlights the role of the State in propagating racism, through a variety of mechanisms from police harassment, failure to prosecute hate crimes, fostering nationalist rhetoric, xenophobic legislation and providing the conditions for labor exploitation. Representatives of Central Asian and Caucasian diasporic populations have been insistent on making this connection to the authorities. It’s always valuable to listen to the people.

The other part of the pan-European story is the commonality of the rise of white supremacist organizations that convert economic distress, a vague sense of nationalist chauvinism and political disenfranchisement into violent ethnic hatred. The failure of a countervailing multicultural vision in the post-Soviet period has allowed such extremist racism to help raise a young generation that is proportionally more xenophobic and racist than their elders. (And yes, their message is, in fact, quite often piped in via the internet.) A few months ago, an older Russian lamented to me and some others, “We act surprised. Where did these violent racist youth come from? But we must have raised them, somehow.”

That “somehow” is something that is still being worked out. It is a question that journalists and intellectuals need to seriously address, casting aside sensational coverage. This task will take thorough data collection, theorizing and reflection…

In the long-term, perhaps the most encouraging sign is the self-organization of national minorities around this issue. As the New York-based Coalition against Anti-Asian Violence (CAAAV) pointed out long ago, the best solution to ethnic violence is community empowerment. Of course, what prospects there are for “community empowerment” in the Russian context is entirely another question.

And here we might return to the one insight of the “un-explanation.” Ethnic violence is but a part of a large tangle of problems faced by residents of Russia. But to imagine that those other problems will have to be solved first misses the point that ethnic violence is a problem of governance and those struggling against it might well form a bulwark for democracy.

In the meantime, Moscow’s migrants face daily violence.

4) “Did I ever say that a murder should be laughed off? I wasn’t trivializing a murder I was making [a] point with hyperbole. Racism and homophobia are exactly the same. The implication of my remark was for you to consider violence as violence, not an ideological war.”

No, you did not literally write that Fedor’s murder should be laughed off. Rather, you opined that it was irrelevant to punks in Australia, and as I’ve already remarked, compared it to an unpleasant myspace adventure you recently had. I call that engaging in trivialisation. Further, racism and homophobia are not “exactly the same”, nor do they manifest in “exactly the same” manner, or have “exactly the same” meaning or significance. The same considerations apply to your amorphous notion of “violence” and its relationship to ideology: Fedor was murdered because he was an active anti-fascist skinhead.

5) “Picking my spelling mistakes isn’t really making an argument. My point is, and I repeat it: I fear you’re not really concerned with racism or homophobia. You’re more interested in a battle of ideologies and belonging to a global movement, more [than] combating interpersonal violence. That’s not that different from neo-Nazi groups you despise.”

No, you’re right: your spelling mistakes, and my picking them apart, is not an argument. (Congratulations on being so observant.) Your fears, on the other hand, are as misplaced as your analysis. Finally, consider for a moment that my posting a news article regarding the murder of a SHARP in Moscow is in reality quite a different form of activity to those which neo-Nazis in Moscow regularly engage in. For example: murdering ethnic minorities and anti-fascists.

6) “I don’t understand why you put sic next to “arguing for a violent hierarchy”, because that’s spelt correctly. “A hierarchy is an arrangement of objects, people, elements, values, grades, orders, classes, etc.” Instead of saying my argument is silly, tell me why it’s silly. You haven’t really considered what I meant by a hierarchy of violence and/or violent hierarchy. I suspect you know exactly what I mean, especially when you say “I agree with you that placing violence in context is useful, whether or not that includes a racial dimension.” But you refuse to commit to that line of reasoning because it undermines the value you put on neo-Nazi violence.”

sic: The word sic may be used either to show that an uncommon or archaic usage is reported faithfully or to highlight an error, sometimes for the purpose of ridicule or irony. It is also sometimes used for comic effect. Your argument is “silly” because you provide no evidence with which to support it. That is, that I argue for a ‘violent hierarchy’. The ‘value’ that I place on the murder of a SHARP in Moscow is reflected in the fact that I sought to draw the attention of readers of the Melbourne Punx Forum to it. I refuse to commit to daft arguments because they’re daft, and even if you erroneously assume some position on my part.

7) “I responded to it, you’ve just missed my entire point. Understanding interpersonal violence has everything to do with it when you’re talking about a murder, or trying to inform people about violence in a global context.”

See 3) above.

8) “So you agree; the motivation is to resolve a political conflict. Why do you have to appear to disagree when you really agree with me?”

“Why do you have to appear to disagree when you really agree with me?” Er… You wrote: “Half of the issue with helping people stop violence (if that’s what you want to do) is getting them to understand that it’s useless for conflict resolution.” I responded: “I disagree. Well, kinda. That is, I believe that some violence — for example, that practice[d] by Russian neo-Nazis — has very little to do with ‘conflict resolution’. Rather, its aims are — if you like — political. Further, one might argue that one of the distinguishing features of fascist violence is that it is geared towards ‘resolving’ conflict by way of extinguishing its purported source.” If I disagree then, it’s because I think mass murder is not usually considered a legitimate form of ‘conflict resolution’, nor is fascist violence usually viewed as being aimed at establishing an agreement between two or more parties to a conflict. With regards fascist violence in Russia, educating yoof that ‘racism is bad, mmmkay?’, is one thing; devising some way of lessening fascist violence is another. This includes, obviously, not only assaults upon punks and skinheads, punk clubs, and groups like Food Not Bombs, but the many more attacks upon ethnic minorities. Most recently:

FOREIGNERS TARGETED IN MURDER SPREE IN MOSCOW. On October 9, a Tajik national was killed in western Moscow. His body with 40 knife wounds was found on a school compound, Viktoriya Tsyplenkova, representative of the Investigations Committee of the Moscow Prosecutor-General’s Office, told Interfax. The news agency also learned that on October 11, an unemployed man living in Moscow stabbed an Uzbek woman, 29. She died of wounds the same day. A suspect has been detained. On October 12, an Armenian man was killed with a knife in northeastern Moscow. Criminal proceedings have been instituted, the report said. Also on October 12, two Tajik nationals, aged 25 and 28, were stabbed in central Moscow, Interfax reported, quoting a law-enforcement source. Both men were taken to a hospital, criminal proceedings have been instituted, and an investigation is in progress.

On October 13, ten young men wearing ski masks beat and repeatedly stabbed an Azeri man on a Moscow suburban train, according the Sova Information-Analytical Center. He was taken to the hospital in serious condition with wounds to the kidney and liver. Police are investigating. On the same day in Moscow, a racist mob attacked four men who appeared to be from the Caucasus, according to Sova. Up to 30 young people assaulted their victims while screaming the far-right slogan “Russia for Russians!” Witnesses claim that police were nearby but did nothing. ~ Bigotry Monitor: Volume 8, Number 41, October 17, 2008

9) “Are you equating me with a giggling racist schoolgirl? HAHAHAHA. Oh Jesus, you’re about 10 years too late. I probably draw my understanding of fascism from a genealogy starting with Giovanni Gentile. I’m not a racist or fascist, if that’s what you’re implying. If there is a political persuasion I could be aligned with, it’d likely be libertarianism or Nietzschean poststructuralism.”

I wish you a speedy recovery.

Your resemblance to a giggling schoolgirl is not a function of your chronological age but your remarks. For example:

    “Let’s put this in perspective: it’s not good when there is any sort of violence, but you’d find racists would be violent even if they weren’t ideologically motivated. Yesterday someone deleted me off their myspace because they said I practice homosexuality and couldn’t be my friend. Am I crying about it, that there is so much homophobia and cross[ing] my arms and stomp[ing] my feet? No it’s funny, stop crying!”
    “Are you saying homophobia is less important [than] racism? That homophobia is of little [relevance]?”
    “What do violent people like most? Opposition!!! You’re giving them an audience!”
    “What about child pornography? Forced prostitution rings? Illegal immigrants?”
    “If Russians are so interesting to you, move to Russia.”
    “With militant antifascists it’s always about [winning] rather [than] listening and coexisting. Not so different from fascists, eh?”
    “You’re more interested in a battle of ideologies and belonging to a global movement, more [than] combating interpersonal violence. That’s not that different from [the] neo-Nazi groups you despise.”

I also have in mind the remarks made by a couple of Kiwi schoolgirls on my blog: ashlee♥ and ♥Kaela. Their School of Thought is Called ‘I Know You Are, But What Am I?’

As for Giovanni Gentile: he’s not a bad place to start an enquiry into the philosophical underpinnings of Italian Fascist thought. On the other hand, as Killdozer sang, Intellectuals Are The Shoeshine Boys Of The Ruling Elite.

Or as Robert O. Paxton puts it:

…the early fascist cadres were far too diverse in social origins and education to fit the common label of marginal outsiders. Alongside street brawlers with criminal records like Amerigo Dumini or Martin Bormann one could find a professor of philosophy like Giovanni Gentile or even, briefly, a musician like Arturo Toscanini. What united them was, after all, values rather than a social profile: scorn for tired bourgeois politics, opposition to the Left, fervent nationalism, a tolerance for violence when needed.

Someone has said that a political party is like a bus: people are always getting on and off. We will see as we go along how fascist clientele altered over time, from radicals to later careerists. Here, too, we cannot see the fascist phenomenon in full only by looking at its beginnings. ~ Robert O. Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism, Penguin/Allen Lane, 2004, p.52.

10) “We, friends and comrades, deeply grieve over his untimely death. We remember Fedjay as the staunch friend and the fine person who could not pass by the stranger’s misfortune or leave a comrade in a trouble. It was one of those people who stood at basis of Moscow Trojan Skinheads, community of apolitical antiracist skinheads from Moscow and Moscow Region. He made for development of Russian antiracist skinhead scene so much as nobody else. There is no doubt, that he was murdered for his believes.”

Fruitsalad: “That made me laugh! Why is antifacism apolitical? Hahahaha while at the same time being antiracists? Classic.”

Hurr hurr. That statement was issued by Fedor’s friends and comrades; it has been translated from the Russian. The Moscow Trojan Skinheads choose to describe themselves as ‘apolitical’ because their members come from a range of political perspectives, or express no ‘political’ views. What they have in common is opposition to racism and fascism, and the fascist infiltration, disruption, defamation and subversion of skinhead culture. “NEITHER RED NOR RACIST” is their motto.

All you’re really doing — apart from exhibiting a rather poor sense of humour — is displaying your ignorance of skinhead. Beyond this, and at heart, a refusal to acknowledge fascist and neo-Nazi movements as being of significance, even in cases, such as Russia, where they are active, growing, militant, and exterminating their enemies. On one level, this is to be expected, and not to be taken seriously, On another level, it begs the question: if the murder of a Russian SHARP is irrelevant or uninteresting to you, the simplest response would be to ignore such matters. Instead, you’ve chosen to embark upon a rather odd dissertation on the subject of ‘anti-fascism’ — and its political equivalence to the murderous antics of Russian boneheads. This would seem to suggest that there exists an undeclared interest on your part, which it would be more honest to simply disclose. In either case, Russian anti-fascists continue to call upon those outside of Russia for assistance.

About @ndy

I live in Melbourne, Australia. I like anarchy. I don't like nazis. I enjoy eating pizza and drinking beer. I barrack for the greatest football team on Earth: Collingwood Magpies. The 2020 premiership's a cakewalk for the good old Collingwood.
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32 Responses to Melbourne Punx Forum : Hello and Goodbye

  1. Nowave says:

    Doesn’t this seem a little childish Andy? I think the reason you were not well received on this forum was more or less because the things you’ve been posting have bored most of us silly. I mean you could just be a very boring human being but that doesn’t mean you’re posts must be boorish and lacking in humour does it?

    Although the biggest problem with your posts are that you’re acting like every boring melbourne uni twat who’s gone through a degree in arts and needs to tell everyone else how stupid and un-informed they are. No one was forcing you to use this forum, nobody is yanking you by your impish little ear and forcing you to read any of this. Maybe just maybe if you joined the rest of us mortals and simpletons you might learn something?

    Another little squabble I would like to tell you off for is this whole thing with the Birmingham Hotel. For starters it was merely a rumour that they’d held a Nazi gathering most people will tell you it never happened. But for you that’s enough to totally trash the reputation of a bar that was really one of the few places that allowed everyone to co-exist. Don’t you think it would have been much better to actually go to one of these supposed gatherings and challenge their ideas? The only thing you support people doing is driving them further underground. Wouldn’t it be much better to have some kind of dialogue with them? Or do you support the Bush doctrine on how to deal with extremists?

    I mean the neo-Nazi movement in Australia is nothing short of pathetic anyway. A huge majority of them are little more then overcompensating bogans who couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. It’s not like because you’ve trashed the Birmingham Hotel that they’re just going to go home and become anarchists. Get a fucking grip.

    Btw if you’re going to quote me on your shitty little blog quote me in context.

    No offence but honestly who gives a shit about some skinhead in Russia. We have way bigger problems with our own government and our supposed allies destroying our liberty and pillaging the remains of some extremely impoverished nations. Why not waste your time blabbing on about those things instead of what some truly irrelevant and pathetic neo-Nazi is doing? Look nobody likes neo-Nazis you’re preaching to the converted. I mean Dane or Patrick or whoever are generally regarded as jokes. Sweetman went to jail for sexually abusing a teenage boy. He’s hardly running around sucking up sympathy from anyone. The point being this is old news.

    My point was we have much bigger issues here.

  2. Fruitsalad says:

    You’ve totally misrepresented what I wrote. I challenge anyone who is reading this to read the original because Andy has selected what he wants others to read. Don’t trust it! Think for yourself.

  3. @ndy says:

    Nowave:

    Doesn’t this seem a little childish Andy? I think the reason you were not well received on this forum was more or less because the things you’ve been posting have bored most of us silly. I mean you could just be a very boring human being but that doesn’t mean [your] posts must be boorish and lacking in humour does it?

    I’ve no idea how many people are members of the Melbourne Punx Forum — perhaps a few dozen have posted regularly over the last few months. The only reason I joined it is because someone claiming to be me and posting rubbish joined, as a result of which I received a complaint. I started two threads. First, I invited anyone who had any questions for me to post them. These were all either perfunctory or silly. The other thread I started concerned Fedor’s murder. I made a handful of comments elsewhere. I’ve come to the conclusion that the Forum is a waste of my time, and therefore I’ve left. I don’t think that’s childish.

    Although the biggest problem with your posts are that you’re acting like every boring melbourne uni twat who’s gone through a degree in arts and needs to tell everyone else how stupid and un-informed they are. No one was forcing you to use this forum, nobody is yanking you by your impish little ear and forcing you to read any of this. Maybe just maybe if you joined the rest of us mortals and simpletons you might learn something?

    I understand that no one forced me to join the Forum, or read anything on it, which is why I’ve never claimed otherwise. The same applies to my post about Fedor’s murder. And?

    Another little squabble I would like to tell you off for is this whole thing with the Birmingham Hotel. For starters it was merely a rumour that they’d held a Nazi gathering most people will tell you it never happened. But for you that’s enough to totally trash the reputation of a bar that was really one of the few places that allowed everyone to co-exist. Don’t you think it would have been much better to actually go to one of these supposed gatherings and challenge their ideas? The only thing you support people doing is driving them further underground. Wouldn’t it be much better to have some kind of dialogue with them? Or do you support the Bush doctrine on how to deal with extremists?

    It’s a simple fact that the Birmingham Hotel held the Ian Stuart Donaldson memorial gig on September 23, 2006, a gig organised by B&H Australia and the Southern Cross Hammerskins, two neo-Nazi organisations. This is a fact which the boneheads themselves acknowledge. Here’s what one anonymous member of Blood & Honour wrote about the gig:

    The day of the gig started as per usual, the early starters started early and the out of towners began to trickle in as the day progressed. Surprisingly it was a rather poor showing from the Melbourne locals and a good portion of those in attendance had traveled from interstate… For a good many of them it was their first B&H concert. The evening progressed well despite the Melbourne red community getting up to their usual tricks.

    For those unaware, The Birmingham is in a very “multi-cultural” (aka shitty) part of Melbourne. The reds seem to have taken affront to our presence and having not so cunningly deduced the whereabouts of the event, proceeded to post the location and contact details of the gig on various red websites. Some bottom touching wag then proceeded to call the pub manager and claiming to be a spokesman for the CFMEU, stated the pub would be closed down by violence due to the assault of a union member by boneheads the previous evening. Full points for originality and credit where credit is due, this story was better than the usual bomb threats, and did cause some nervousness on behalf of the pub management. Of course it was all bullshit that came to nothing, and prank calls and hang ups were the order of the night throughout the evening. Of the reds themselves however there was never any sign…

    In a footnote however, many left wing punks, feeling betrayed by The Birmingham (traditionally a punk hangout), called for a boycott of the pub from [sic] their annual pub crawl the following week due to their “support” for the Nazis. The pub crawl ended at The Birmy as per usual, red punks in tow, probably grumbling drunkenly into their beer about Nazi sympathisers.

    If you deny that the gig took place, put simply, you’re an idiot. The 2005 ISD gig was also held at The Birmy. I’ve written about this subject ad nauseum — if you’re truly interested, read my blog.

    I mean the neo-Nazi movement in Australia is nothing short of pathetic anyway. A huge majority of them are little more then overcompensating bogans who couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. It’s not like because you’ve trashed the Birmingham Hotel that they’re just going to go home and become anarchists. Get a fucking grip.

    I suggest you do the same. Obviously, the (successful) campaign to boycott the Birmy was not intended to ensure that boneheads became anarchists. This is why no one has suggested this except you. The point was to bring about a change in management from one which has provided a platform for neo-Nazis over several years to one which is uninterested in doing so. Secondly, to make other venues aware of the fact that providing neo-Nazis with a platform is not in their interests. This is why, in 2007, the management of the Melbourne Croatia Social Club was publicly embarrassed following their hosting of the 2007 ISD gig, and the President of the Melbourne Knights FC, which is closely linked to the Social Club, made a public statement that neither the Knights nor the Club condone fascism, and regard those who do as “scum”.

    Regarding the neo-Nazi movement in Australia, if it’s tiny and pathetic, that’s obviously a good thing. Keeping that way is too. However, B&H is not so disorganised that it can’t arrange for an annual gig to commemorate the death of its founder, or for this to take place (until this year, when they met in Beaconsfield) in metropolitan Melbourne. That’s why the Birmy was an important issue, and why I participate in Fightdemback!

    Btw if you’re going to quote me on your shitty little blog quote me in context.

    The context does not alter the fact that you regard the murder of Fedor as utterly inconsequential, and for this reason my posting an article concerning it was pointless. You’re obviously entitled to your opinion; I for one disagree. It’s also the case that my blog is a good deal more popular than the Melbourne Punx Forum, having had 36,208 visits from June 20 to October 20, 2008, or approximately 9,000 visits per month.

  4. Nowave says:

    9000 visits wow. Oh my god that totally changes my opinion of this blog. I’m going to go jack off with Noam Chomsky.

    To be straight with you though you didn’t answer my question. My question was don’t you think it would have been better to have protested the B&H gig rather then just drive them underground?
    If they want to have one of their lame parties let them. I could care less. These gigs are already illegal anyway.

    As to Fedor’s death I think its a great tragedy but so much of that happens every single day in all parts of the world for a million and one more reasons. I can’t exactly hold a candle light vigil every time someone dies. It happens.
    My point was that as Australians we cannot do anything about it. That is for the Russian people and authorities. It has nothing to do with us that is unless I get in my super best friend’s helicopter and fly over Russia killing baddies and making everything just dandy again.

  5. @ndy says:

    Nowave:

    I take it from your silence on the matter that you now accept that neo-Nazi functions took place at the Birmy.

    My point in claiming that this blog has had an average of app. 9,000 hits per month over the last few months was not to excite you or cause you to masturbate over Noam Chomsky’s writings, but to further reinforce the fact that, as far as my writing is concerned, many times more people read my blog than the Melbourne Punx Forum, so not to post there is no great loss in terms of readership.

    Regarding your question, my answer is no, not really. That is, there was in fact a public protest at the Birmy following the gig. Here’s a newspaper report:

    ‘Protesters put hard word on Fitzroy pub’
    Marika Dobbin
    The Melbourne Times
    November 1, 2006

    More than 150 punks, skinheads, feminists and other protesters picketed a Fitzroy hotel on Saturday to condemn a recent neo-Nazi concert at the pub.

    Tensions were high when the protesters entered The Birmingham Hotel to demand that publican Gary, who wouldn’t give his surname, answer questions about the gig and join other Smith Street traders by putting an anti-racism sticker in his window.

    “It’s not my job to ask people what their beliefs are,” Gary told the protesters who crowded the public bar. He agreed to put the sticker up if protesters left.

    Patrons of the bar reacted angrily to the protesters, saying two neo-Nazi gigs in five years didn’t make The Birmingham a Nazi pub. A couple drinking at the pub told TMT they had been wrongly accused of Nazism and narrowly avoided being bashed by men driving past after they left the pub last week.

    During Saturday’s protest, police broke up a scuffle between Gary and the punks who put stickers outside on the hotel’s signs.

    “I don’t believe discriminatory groups have a right to organise,” said one of the punks, Adam (who also wouldn’t give his surname) from Footscray. “They have no justifiable reason to have a venue in our community.”

    He said that neo-Nazi skinheads, or boneheads, were a small subculture within the punk and skinhead movements but people often didn’t understand the distinction. “We cop it from them as much as anyone.”

    Protesters also attached placards reading “Fuck Nazis” and “Fuck off Fascists” to signs in Smith and Johnston Streets.

    Claire from Coburg said: “We want to show this pub how much opposition there is to Nazism in this area, so they stop letting them come here.”

    Secondly, I’m happy for the neo-Nazis to be driven ‘underground’. In fact, B&H and the SCHS are already there. This is why they never publicise the venues for their gigs, and why doing so actually makes things slightly more difficult for them. In any case, I’m not absolutely sure what you mean by ‘underground’, or why you think driving them ‘underground’ is better than… what, I dunno.

    You write that: “If they want to have one of their lame parties let them. I could care less. These gigs are already illegal anyway.” Are they? Says who? Are you a lawyer? Have you sought legal advice on this question? As far as I’m aware, this is not the case. Regarding you not caring — I don’t care that you don’t care. I would only if I was relying upon you for something, and obviously, I don’t.

    Regarding Fedor’s murder, yeah, of course: people die. But I’m not asking you to light a candle. In fact, I’m not asking — nor do I expect — you to do anything at all.

    What gives you the impression that I expect something from you?

    Further, I’m not asking anyone, “as Australians”, to do anything. At the end of 2005 and the beginning of 2006, following the murder by neo-Nazis of Timur Kacharava (another young punk from St Petersburg), I did make some noises about organising a benefit gig, but apart from Yidcore, no other bands (that I recall) offered to join them on the bill. I still think this would be a good idea, as Russian antifa have asked for such support, and much money is needed in order to pay for funerals, hospitalisations, legal fees, and more.

  6. @ndy says:

    PS.

    What are you going to do with your new ways?
    What are you going to do with your new wave?
    Maybe it’s that you no longer care
    Now you’re so great
    You’ve just got to stand there
    Or were you never even bothered anyway
    About the new wave

    What about the new wave?
    Did you think it would change things?

    Here we all are in the latest craze
    Stick with the crowd
    Hope it’s not a passing phase
    It’s the latest thing to be nowhere
    You can turn into the wallpaper
    But you know you were always there anyway
    Without the new wave

    What about the new wave?
    Did you think it would change things?

    It’s just safety in numbers

    When it’s tricky, when it gets tough
    When you need to feel that you’re good enough
    All you pretty people who’ve been taken over
    Had better start looking for your own answers
    ‘Cause there’s no safety in numbers anyway
    Or in a new wave

    What about the new wave?
    Did you think it would change things?

    It’s just safety in numbers

  7. Nowave says:

    Actually under the current legislation regarding religious and racial vilification it is illegal for a venue to hold such an event. It can be viewed as inciting violence and if any violence does occur the band and the venue are liable. Not to mention the fact that the cost of insurance for a venue that held these gigs would skyrocket and most venues wouldn’t bother.

    Again the fact that people read this blog doesn’t mean that it’s anything more then a pile of self indulgent self serving drivel. So people read your blog. That’s fine. Some people are happy to drink swill.

    Btw what do you expect when you post on the melbourne punx forum? If you don’t expect anything from anyone on that forum for what reason would you bother posting? Wouldn’t it be an empty gesture? Why would you do anything without reason? If you didn’t expect anything you could have posted anything you want.

    It seems as though you think that punks automatically have left wing affiliations which just isn’t the case. I think the punk movement was a movement of personal liberation and that is what I believe in. I believe people should be free to do and think whatever they want. What makes you think you can tell people they can’t think a certain way? As idiotic as I think these people are it’s up to them how they live. Don’t you think it would be better to confront their logic with a reasonable argument in a public forum? Most neo-Nazis won’t listen to you. Some do. Plenty of people have left these movements. It’s possible that is unless you don’t view them as human beings?

    Oh and that song is quite amazing. I mean geez he must have been related to Shakespeare or something.

  8. @ndy says:

    Nowave:

    Actually under the current legislation regarding religious and racial vilification it is illegal for a venue to hold such an event. It can be viewed as inciting violence and if any violence does occur the band and the venue are liable. Not to mention the fact that the cost of insurance for a venue that held these gigs would skyrocket and most venues wouldn’t bother.

    You’re referring, presumably, to the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act 2001. There have been very few uses of this legislation. The first case was brought in 2004 by the Islamic Council of Victoria, against Catch the Fire Ministries. It was finally resolved in mid-2007 although — outside of some motherhood statements — the final agreement between the two parties was confidential. There have been a handful of other cases, all of which appear to relate to religion, not race. (The second case was brought by a Wiccan prison inmate against the Starvation Army. He lost.) Thus, as far as I’m aware, this legislation has never been used against ‘racists’. Certainly, it has never been used against B&H, the SCHS, or any other ‘neo-Nazi’ grouping that I’m aware of.

    Perhaps you’re more familiar with the case law?

    In any case, as the legal action against Catch the Fire Ministries demonstrates, the fact that a piece of legislation exists — one which might, theoretically, apply in some fashion to some event or publication — is no guarantee of legislative remedy. Further, I’m not a lawyer, nor am I interested in bringing a case against B&H or the SCHS. More simply, I’ve exposed the venues they have used, and in one case, The Birmy, advocated a boycott. This, to me, seems a much simpler and, in the end, more effective form of action to take.

    Finally, regarding insurance… I’m not sure what your point is. Obviously, notwithstanding your apparent knowledge of this piece of legislation, its effects and implications, venues have, in fact, been found: The Jam Tin in Cheltenham in 2004; The Birmy in Fitzroy in 2005 and 2006; the Melbourne Croatia Social Club in Sunshine in 2007; and The Central Hotel in Beaconsfield in 2008. Unless you’re party to some kinda insider knowledge regarding the effects of these gigs on insurance costs for The Jam Tin, The Birmy, the MCSC and The Central Hotel, you would appear to be talking out of your arse.

    Again the fact that people read this blog doesn’t mean that it’s anything more then a pile of self indulgent self serving drivel. So people read your blog. That’s fine. Some people are happy to drink swill.

    Uh-huh.

    Some people think that it was merely a rumour that The Birmy had held a Nazi gathering, and most people will tell you it never happened.

    Some people are really fucking stoopid.

    Btw what do you expect when you post on the melbourne punx forum? If you don’t expect anything from anyone on that forum for what reason would you bother posting? Wouldn’t it be an empty gesture? Why would you do anything without reason? If you didn’t expect anything you could have posted anything you want.

    You don’t appear to have read the post to which you’re ostensibly responding. I wrote:

    In early August I received an email from ‘Psycho 78′ asking me if I was responsible for a posting on the Melbourne Punx Forum implying that I thought she was a slut who deserved to be raped. The email was prompted by the following message in a thread titled ‘Surprise Sex Attack VIC shows Sep 08′ (shane, Aug 18, 2008):

      Andy SlackBastard, Aug 22, 2008

      Listen you bitches. Women have raped men before, men rape men and women rape women. So why do you hetrosexual [sic] women take offence to [sic] the band`s name? All kinds [sic] of people get raped, not just women. And all kinds [sic] of people commit rape, not just men. Why is the name in bad taste? No one else finds it offensive, just hetro sexual [sic] sluts like you fruit salad and psycho 78. I reckon if a woman gets raped then she deservses [sic] it anyway. The way some sluts dress today with their mini skirts tells me that they`re just asking for it. If you dress like a slut then you ARE a slut and you want it. You only cry rape after sex because you`re embaressed [sic] about being a horny slut so you tell everyone that he raped you. I reckon that this band sound cool and [I] might go along and see them. Hopefully there`ll be some young slut at the gig for me to pick up.

    Pretty daft and not really in keeping with my written comments generally, but whoever posted it — and judging by its contents, it was written by a young boy — obviously, if rather ineptly, wanted to create some kind of bad impression. And I would have ignored it — as I have other rather unsubtle online impersonations in the past — if I’d not received the above email. So: just to clear the air, I joined the Melbourne Punx Forum…

    Aside from an introductory message intended to establish some facts about my participation on the Forum, I made one other post: Anti-fascist Activist Killed in Moscow (October 14, 2008). This simply re-published a recent article by The Other Russia concerning the murder of a SHARP skinhead in Moscow. The stabbing to death of Fedor Filatov (Filatov «Fedjay» Feodor Vasilevich) on October 10 outside his apartment appears to have gone completely unremarked in the English-language press, and has met with mostly indifference on the part of the handful of users of the Melbourne Punx Forum who have commented on this story.

    Regarding my expectations, in my previous reply I stated that I didn’t expect anything from YOU nowave (whoever you are). Therefore, I’m neither disappointed that I failed to entertain you, nor am I perturbed that you don’t give a shit about “some skinhead in Russia”. More generally, I believed that the fact that a SHARP had been murdered by boneheads in Moscow might be of interest to some readers of the Melbourne Punx Forum, especially as this incident is merely the latest such occurrence, and there is a neo-Nazi campaign to exterminate punks and skins in Moscow and other parts of Russia. Finally, because there is an international campaign in solidarity with anti-fascists in Russia.

    It seems as though you think that punks automatically have left wing affiliations which just isn’t the case. I think the punk movement was a movement of personal liberation and that is what I believe in. I believe people should be free to do and think whatever they want.

    I’m not responsible for whatever illusions you have Nowave (or how you use them). In that other dimension called reality, I don’t regard all punks as ‘left-wing’: little old ladies with liberal politics got more attitude than some yoof (with funny haircuts). On the other hand, you don’t have to be either ‘left-wing’ or a ‘punk’ to be appalled by neo-Nazi violence.

    Your understanding of the history of punk is as profound as your opinion that people should be free is deep.

    What makes you think you can tell people they can’t think a certain way? As idiotic as I think these people are it’s up to them how they live. Don’t you think it would be better to confront their logic with a reasonable argument in a public forum? Most neo-Nazis won’t listen to you. Some do. Plenty of people have left these movements.

    What makes you think I think you can tell people they can’t think a certain way? Or that this bears any relation to anything in the above post? I’m not interested in confronting neo-Nazis with “logic”; I’m interested in disrupting their organising projects. If neo-Nazis wish to re-examine their beliefs, they have plenty of opportunity to do so. Two who did are David Greason and Ingo Hasselbach. Their reasons for doing so are contained in I was a teenage fascist (1994) and Führer EX (1996). Alternatively, there’s the story of George Burdi. The biography of Hans Post is also relevant.

    It’s possible that is unless you don’t view them as human beings?

    Hitler was quite fond of his dogs. Who woulda thunk it?

    Oh and that song is quite amazing. I mean geez he must have been related to Shakespeare or something.

    That song was sung by TV Smith, and the band playing it was The Thought Criminals. Both are punk rock pioneers. “Safety In Numbers” was originally released in 1977. The Criminals (Sydney) were gigging 1977–1981. I was chatting to their former bass player on Saturday, but not about William.

  9. caitlinate says:

    just to join in the fun: the readership here also relates to the points made about andy going and protesting instead of… well, i don’t know what the other options were. the x number of people reading is also an x number of people hopefully considering taking action and/or spreading the word about the management of the birmy (at the time). which is perhaps a whole bunch more useful than an individual standing on the corner of smith and johnston holding a placard.

    additionally the ‘who gives a fuck it is in russia’ argument is ludicrous and foolish. i could explain at length my opinions on things like globalisation, political movements, solidarity, etc but it seems a tiresome chore… put simply: what happens on the other side of the world isn’t actually as removed as one would like to believe. for example: iraq.

    sigh… someone is wrong on the internet…

  10. Nowave says:

    Actually I have worked within the music industry and have organised events and yes I do know that such an event would be nearly impossible to organise in a decent venue without the cloak of secrecy.
    My point about the cost of insurance is this, most venues would not bother allowing such a band to play because as I stated legally they are liable. The price of ensuring the venue if the insurance company caught wind would skyrocket because of the associated violence with such gigs. Most venues would simply not even bother.
    Also I think that the laws regarding religious vilification would apply to a white supremecist band as their not to fond of jews,catholics,muslims,buddists ect ect.
    Although it has never been used it doesnt mean that it cannot be used.

    As for your reasons for joing this forum which I am well aware of I like most other people and to be frank are rediculous. So someone does some internet trolling claiming to be you. Wow welcome to the world of internet forums. I hear that right now you can send people these things called electronic mail. Like a letter sent using a series of binary. I mean wow.

    btw Ouch Andy. Some people are stoopid. Others are self rightious bores who talk as if they’ve never had a moments fun in their whole miserable lives. Others seem to take this internet thing a tad to serious and feel the need to turn a generally humorous forum into something so boring Al Gore would have trouble staying awake reading it.

    One last thing why would you assume that Melbournes punx would care about such a thing or even want to read about it?

    Hitler was fond of dogs and a vegitarian with one testicle. Allegedly he had a urine fetish and a morphine/amphetamine habit. He sounds like my kind of guy.

  11. Lumpen says:

    My question was don’t you think it would have been better to have protested the B&H gig rather then just drive them underground?
    If they want to have one of their lame parties let them. I could care less. These gigs are already illegal anyway.

    Nowave: The gigs are already “underground”. They are organised in secret and the location is not revealed until the last minute via SMS after a face-to-face meeting with the organisers.

    Problems exist for other people even if they don’t affect you directly. If you were Jewish, for example, and wanted to have a beer at the Beaconsfield Hotel a few weeks ago, that might have constituted a pretty big fucking problem. Do your research and you might find out why the boycott of the Birmingham was called and, it’s worth pointing out, generally supported. The boycott is no longer in place thanks to the change of management and gig policy.

    If there’s a prevalence of academic-speak around these things, it’s because the Melbourne punk scene (with a few very notable exceptions) has failed to articulate a better alternative of either language or action. Of course this comes down to all manner of people being attracted to punk for a variety of reasons, but it doesn’t make it any less annoying when a few bright sparks try to pass off their passivity and inaction as a hardcore stance.

    To try and address your question from the point of view of someone who a) likes this blog and b) supported and encouraged the boycott as a form of action (including the shaming of scabs), the reason why we didn’t try to establish a conversation with fascists and racists from Blood and Honour or the Hammerkins is because they are not bound to reason and they tend to get a bit stabby with anyone who questions their world view – it’s one reason why I hate their guts. A simple protest (in the form of milling about with signs) actually occurred, it is on the public record (google “Birmingham Hotel” and “protest”). For obvious reasons a small action like this is not enough and so other forms of action were pursued.

    If you don’t have a problem with Nazis holding gigs and can’t see why anyone else does, well, I think you’re a dick. As for who posts what on an internet forum, gosh, I barely care about punk music, so you can imagine how I feel about a forum dedicated to it.

  12. Kadet says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the frequent posters on the melbourne punx forum are internet trollers or would-be chaos punks looking for any excuse to talk shit (Nowave is the epitome of this). Either way, they certainly have way too much free time on their hands and evidently don’t even bother getting organised and/or contributing to the punk community. Seriously, if I ever wanted to bask in absolute net forum stupidity I’d visit Stormfront, the melbourne punx forum would come a close second.

  13. Nowave says:

    Hahahahahahahaha. Choas [sic] punk. You sure hit the nail on the head there. Its just good to know that some people really make the [sic] use of their time on forums in a meaningful way. They dont just sit around picking the fungus from between their toes they get up and change the whole world.
    I mean if only I knew how one could obtain such a highly un-warrented [sic] level of self satisfaction I would write a big long book about how everyone is a [sic] basically a racist homophobic Neo-Nazi who needs to be re-educated by more enlightened more culturally sensative [sic] and just alround [sic] good guys.
    Then after I sat everyone down and told them all how wrong everything is in the world and forced them to read the book I would show up in [M]oscow and sit [sic] all of those angry neo-nazi’s [sic] a good talking to. I would say hey guys its tots [sic] not cool what you’ve been doing. I mean its really riding up in my grill so to speak, then after I’d done that everything would just be dandy because the only concern anyone should have is making sure there arent any nazi’s [sic] because being a Nazi is really bad. Thanks so much Andy life just seems so simple from here.

    Nazi=bad

    General Popul[ace]=good

    Got it.

  14. @ndy says:

    Sweet Jesus.

    Nowave: You state you you really couldn’t give a shit about some dead skinhead and that I’m being childish for caring. Complain about being bored and misunderstood. Declare that The Birmy never hosted Nutzis. Opine that tea and scones is a more appropriate response to Nutzi gatherings than encouraging a boycott of a venue which provides them a forum, and that my failure to embrace your wisdom is the equivalent of my adopting George II’s rhetoric regarding The War on Terror. Similarly, declare that my aim in promoting a boycott is equivalent to attempting to turn boneheads into anarchists — overnight. You joke about masturbating over Noam Chomsky, and consider Fedor’s murder to have “nothing to do with us that is unless [you] get in [your] super best friend’s helicopter and fly over Russia killing baddies and making everything just dandy again”.

    And on and on and on.

    You’re an idiot.

  15. Nowave says:

    My joke was about masturbating with Noam Chomsky [not] over him and frankly I would have got to [R]ussia had I remembered to refuel the super best friend[‘]s copter.

  16. Lumpen says:

    I’m pretty certain we’ve been successfully trolled. Well played, Nowave. I should have guessed when he said this:

    Wouldn’t it be much better to have some kind of dialogue with [the neo-Nazis]?

    Followed by:

    Then after I sat everyone down and told them all how wrong everything is in the world and forced them to read the book I would show up in [M]oscow and sit [sic] all of those angry neo-nazi’s [sic] a good talking to.

    Just to make it plain, Nowave states that anyone who doesn’t like fascist groups organising* in Melbourne should try to talk them out of it, then goes on to attribute this plainly insane suggestion to Andy. Incredible.

  17. @ndy says:

    Dear Nowave,

    Hope you don’t mind me writing, it’s just that there’s more than one thing I need to ask you. If you’re so anti-fashion, why not wear flares, instead of dressing down all the same. It’s just that looking like that I can express my dissatisfaction.

    Dear Nowave,

    Let me explain, though you’d never see in a million years. Keep quoting Cabaret, Berlin, Burroughs, J.G. Ballard, Duchamp, Beauvoir, Kerouac, Kierkegaard, Michael Rennie. I don’t believe you really like Frank Sinatra.

    Dear Nowave,

    You’re always so happy, how the hell do you get your inspiration? You’re like a dumb patriot. If you’re supposed to be so angry, why don’t you fight and let me benefit from your right? Don’t you know the only way to change things is to shoot men who arrange things?

    Dear Nowave,

    I would explain but you’d never see in a million years. Well, you’ve made your rules, but we don’t know that game, perhaps I’d listen to your records but your logic’s far too lame and I’d only waste three valuable minutes of my life with your insincerity.

    You see Nowave, I’m just searching for the young soul rebels, and I can’t find them anywhere. Where have you hidden them?

    Maybe you should welcome the new soul vision.

  18. Kadet says:

    Hello @ndy you forgot to mention…

    Dear Nowave:

    You do realise the hypocrisy of dedicating your life to a forum specifically designed for a subculture you despise.

    and

    Dear Nowave:

    You’re a pretentious dyslexic twat that needs to get a life beyond internet bickering and evidently: wanking over or in the presence of old men.

  19. uni twat says:

    Neo-Nazis accused of plot to assassinate Obama
    Elana Schor
    The Guardian
    October 28 2008

    Law enforcement officers have foiled an alleged plot by two skinhead neo-Nazis who aimed to assassinate Barack Obama and kill 102 other people, according to court records unsealed today.

    Daniel Cowart, 20, and Paul Schlesselman, 18, were arrested in Tennessee on Wednesday and charged with making threats against a presidential candidate, conspiring to rob a gun store and possessing an unregistered firearm.

    They planned a “killing spree” in which they would target a predominantly black high school, killing 88 people and beheading 14 others, before trying to shoot Obama. They intended to wear white tuxedos and top hats during the assassination bid, said Jim Cavanaugh, the special agent in charge of the ATF’s Nashville office.

    “They said that would be their last, final act, that they would attempt to kill Senator Obama,” he said. “They didn’t believe they would be able to do it, but that they would get killed trying.”

    The 88 and 14 are believed to be coded references to Adolf Hitler and David Lane, a white supremacist who died in prison last year. H is the eighth letter of the alphabet, and 88 represents the phrase “Heil Hitler,” Cavanaugh said; 14 is a reference to a 14-word summary of Lane’s views: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”

    No way! Couldn’t be possibly ideologically motivated!

    I totally agree ‘Fruitsalad’… neo-Nazis definitely sound like the kinds of people we should learn to listen to and coexist with.

    Then again I guess Nowave is right, honestly, who gives a shit about some skinheads in America?

  20. Nowave says:

    So you have a problem with me masturbating with old men? I was lead to believe that left wing pinkos [no apostrophe dickhead] were much more accepting then [than] that? Are you suggesting that there [is] something wrong with a gold old fashioned circle jerk? I’d be carefull [sic] what you say Andy might organise to boycott you. That is after he’s done sucking the fun out of the Punx forum and painfully reminding everyone that he has no concept of irony.

    BTW How could I quote Marcel Duchamp? I’m far to [sic] dyslexic for that.

    PS. Lumpen you’ve found the secret message. Send your answer to Pink Floyd care of the funny farm.

  21. @ndy says:

    Nowave:

    You’re a silly little twat who needs a good slapping. Congratulations on making your [penultimate] comment.

    Now fuck off.

  22. VC says:

    Hey Nowave,

    You appear ridiculous in the eyes of others. Go lose a chromosome.

  23. Nowave says:

    It would be much worse if Andy liked me because then I would have to commit suicide.

  24. @ndy says:

    A)

    I like you very much.

    Now kill yourself.

    B)

    I’d consider killing you / If I thought you were alive.

    Twat.

  25. Nowave says:

    I am a twat.

  26. Nowave says:

    I am a twat.

  27. Lumpen says:

    From epic trolling success to epic trolling failure. Oh Nowave, you used to be cool.

  28. Nowave says:

    I am a twat.

  29. @ndy says:

    It’s Official.

    Nowave is a twat.

  30. @ndy says:

    PPS.

    STEEL RULE (Olsen/A)

    There’s no cooperation in the “me” generation
    Greed fueled self-dictation
    Downfall of the nation
    Looking out for number one
    You lost, You lose, I win, I won
    Piece of the pie, I want some
    Rat race, still on the run
    What can we do?
    What can we do?
    What can we do?
    Fuck the golden rule?
    No matter what you do, Jim Baker’s raping you
    No matter what you say, you look like Pinochet
    Step on the hands, make more demands
    Be you own boss, never mind the loss

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