Ian Stuart Donaldson, English neo-Nazi musician. Born August 11, 1957, died in a car accident, September 24, 1993, aged 36.
Joerg Haider, German far right politician. Born January 26, 1950, died in a car accident, October 11, 2008, aged 58.
The moral of this story?
Nazis Shouldn’t Drive
They shouldn’t be driving day or night
They can’t think left, they can only think right
The sun reflects off their bald head
Like Ian Stuart they’re going to wind up dead
Nazis… shouldn’t drive (their cars)
They should’ve paid attention in driver’s ed
Instead of hating foreigners, queers and reds
Keep your eyes on the highway you loser thug
Now you’re squished on the highway like a bug
Ian, Ian, King of the Pit, no friend to you or me
Aaaaaaaaaaaah! Watch out for that tree!
ummm seems to me they should drive early and drive often
“This is like a dream for us,” the perpetually tanned Haider told reporters in Klagenfurt, where he served as governor of the province of Carinthia.
Start reading from page 51 [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/preparedness-post-youre-hearing-street-511474p51.html]
C’mon, show some sympathy!
I’m sorry, but what gives you the right to poke fun at this man’s death?
Disagree with him all you like, but any death from that kind of accident is a tragedy.
You may not like his views – that does not excuse wishing this man’s death or finding fun in it.
You’ve proved yourself to be in the same league you put Haider in… someone who engages in schadenfreude and preys or capitalises on the misfortune of another person.
On a side note, let’s not trivialise this discussion and engage in a debate about condoning Haider’s views.
I’m not for one minute trying to endorse his views. But disagreeing with his views is very different from engaging in perverted humour about someone else’s death.
I think we fundamentally better ourselves and society by defeating these people through democratic reasoning and tolerance. Anything less lowers us to their playing field.
The separation between those who advance society’s interests and understanding and those who seek to ruin it is that we take a moral stand above theirs. We win through moral words and actions, not cheap shots and pummelling someone or a group because of what pain or tragedy they face.
We should not engage in vulgar and uncalled for comments, even if it concerns the death of someone we don’t like or agree with.
After all, we’re better than that.
Stefan:
“I’m sorry, but what gives you the right to poke fun at this man’s death?
Disagree with him all you like, but any death from that kind of accident is a tragedy.”
By questioning my right, I assume you’re referring not to issues of free speech but appropriateness. That is, is it in fact moral or conscionable to “poke fun at this man’s death”?
Haider died seemingly as a result of a car accident — although there are no doubt those who believe he was in fact murdered, probably by ZOG. An unexpected turn of events, yes, but not a tragedy, in my opinion. Or at least, not from my perspective, and not on a global scale of human tragedy. To put it another way: when celebrities of one sort or another die spectacular deaths, there’s invariably a torrent of such commentary — ‘how horrible’, ‘what a tragedy’, etc. In the real world, people die all the time, in all sorts of circumstances, and generally in far more tragic ones than those endured by celebrities. Further, the fame, fortune and fabulousness of the lives lived by celebrities and the otherwise privileged (Haider was a career politician who spent almost 30 years in parliaments) is very far removed from the daily grind the bulk of humanity endures.
As I see it, the real tragedy for Haider is that he went out on a relative high. The tragedy for his followers is that they’ve lost a leader, and may have to content themselves with being lead by the blonde fascist for the time being.
“You may not like his views – that does not excuse wishing this man’s death or finding fun in it.”
No, I don’t like his views. And I agree: not liking someone’s views is not sufficient reason to wish someone dead. That said, I didn’t wish Haider dead — everyone dies, after all. On the other hand, I’m not unhappy that he died at the age of 58 in a car crash: shit happens. As for finding ‘fun’ in it: the truth is that the first thing that occurred to me upon reading of his death in a car accident was Ian Stuart.
“You’ve proved yourself to be in the same league you put Haider in… someone who engages in schadenfreude and preys or capitalises on the misfortune of another person.”
I disagree. I’m an Australian blogger; Haider is a dead Austrian politician. To be in the same league as Haider, to begin with, I’d probably have to be a member of the One Nation party or a maverick Tory, and have a seat in Parliament. Further, have Nazi parents, neo-Nazi sympathies, a law degree, be xenophobic, and riding a minor wave of electoral support. Believe it or not, Haider’s death brings me little joy; it’s just one of those things. People die all the time. Unlike Haider’s penchant for whipping up racist hysteria, I’m in no position to ‘capitalise’ upon his death in any meaningful sense of the term, and frankly don’t see how I could.
He did nothing to you. Show some sympathy.
Hey Stefan if alive I would have put a boot in his head and now dead I would cheerfully piss on his fucking grave and smash his tombstone. How do you feel about that Stefan? Oh you are not impressed? Probably because you are a fool who thinks that bad people dying ‘accidentally’ is more tragic than when they die on purpose.
Feel free to hop in your time machine and sprinkle some “democratic reasoning and tolerance” over history’s other arseholes. I’m sure with these powers you possess you can ensure that Hitler and his friends find a new life path and single handedly change the 20th century for the better.
So in summary burn in the pits of hell Joerg Haider I hope your friends and followers are with you soon.
Stefan:
“…disagreeing with his views is very different from engaging in perverted humour about someone else’s death.”
I’m not sure what perverted humour is. Is it any relation to degenerate art?
My outpouring of sympathy can look suspiciously like I’m celebrating. This is mainly due to me pumping my fist in the air and saying “yesssss!” and doing little dances in my seat by flexing my left and right buttock muscles in time to the music.
Ultimate Hater,
I am not a fool and really have to question your own intelligence for saying that.
What you said is nothing but the rhetoric you accuse Haider of. You’ve indulged in that microcosm of the demagogue… trying to fan and spread the flames just as you probably say Haider and his associates do…
Isn’t truth above lies? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of hate for hate’s sake? At the end of the day, Ultimate Hater, your name satisfies its own conclusion. You focus more on HATING than you do on the world without the hate.
You sound like the 21st century English-speaking equivalent of an S.A. trooper. Pissing on someone’s grave? C’mon I’d hear that kind of talk from a skip racist in rural Queensland.
—
On a side note, Andy, I wasn’t directly equating you on the “Haider level”. And I don’t expect you to cry rivers of tears over his death. And it wasn’t so much a matter of ‘capitalisation’ in your post on his death.
What I mean is that there is a moral line in my opinion… I wouldn’t say anyone here has clearly crossed it (besides Ultimate Hater). We just need to be careful of what is said and how it is said… not just for our interactions with others but also our own conscience and sense of what we do in the face of people we disagree with.
I just find that some components of anti-fascism tend to approach a reverse example of fascist hatred (ie Ultimate Hater’s rant). Would you agree that this can sometimes be the case, Andy?
I just wish he’d lost control into a crowd of his supporters.
“I am not a fool and really have to question your own intelligence for saying that.”
You make a universal demand that everyone adhere to your idea of ‘respect’ for dead people. I work on very clear cut lines – If you are a right wing dickhead, a child rapist or neo-Nazi well goodbye from planet earth I wish there was a hell for you to burn in and I will slander your name after you are gone.
“What you said is nothing but the rhetoric you accuse Haider of. You’ve indulged in that microcosm of the demagogue… trying to fan and spread the flames just as you probably say Haider and his associates do…”
Fan and spread flames of what? Zero tolerance for fascism and, when not hating fascism, the promotion of freedom for all people regardless of race, sex, etc? Oh yeah I can see how that is exactly the same type of hatred as the hatred they themselves project… no wait I can’t.
“Isn’t truth above lies? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of hate for hate’s sake? At the end of the day, Ultimate Hater, your name satisfies its own conclusion. You focus more on HATING than you do on the world without the hate.”
I am actually a well rounded and happy individual but I will still knock Nazi teeth out given the opportunity and I’m not even that accustomed to violence. Please enjoy your democratic reasoning with the neo-fascism and right wing parties of capitalist democracies.
“You sound like the 21st century English-speaking equivalent of an S.A. trooper. Pissing on someone’s grave? C’mon I’d hear that kind of talk from a skip racist in rural Queensland.”
Skip and then racist next to each other? Let’s assume you have seriously taken this as more than just an expression, yes I would piss on Joerg Haider’s grave and the grave of any of history’s other arseholes just for laughs. If I were to be walking in a cemetery I imagine the conversation would go something like this “Hey mate that is Joerg Haider’s grave just there” and in reply “I am hell going to piss on that cunt’s grave aye” and then I would do it.
I am sure you would find it more rewarding to democratically argue with the grave but whatever – different strokes Stefan.
lol
Harden up, Stefan.
Okay, Ultimate Hater, well how many “Nazis” have you knocked teeth out of? Could I get a ballpark figure? Are you the Ernst Thaelmann of Australia then?
You’re probably right up there with Eleanor Roosevelt and Doc Evatt starting the UN… except you’re travelling the world first-class bravely bashing up and urinating on Nazis one at a time…
You might very well be happy in your life… but well-rounded? I’m fairly sure that well-rounded individuals don’t say what you said…
Freedom for all individuals? Yet you talk about pissing on people’s graves, bashing them (yet another similarity with the S.A.) etc etc… hardly the priorities of a person who wants to work towards helping others, rather than just trashing their enemies…
In fact, tell me what YOU do to promote these ideals of freedom and tolerance (which you never mentioned until AFTER I questioned your first post). Because practically all I’ve heard from you is a desire to perpetuate violence and maim others. Seems to me you’re acting on either hot-headedness or pure bravado.
A right-wing politician dies and one of the first things you express is your desire to piss on his grave… an extremely juvenile, pig-headed, obscene and extreme sentiment in my opinion.
Your comments weren’t constructive… they just expressed hatred of a man who’s DEAD. Pissing on Joerg Haider’s grave will do nothing in stemming the reasons why men like him are still popular in Europe and elsewhere… in fact, it just makes people like us look like loons for associating with people like you.
Grow up, and get rid of fascists legitimately, preferably without the use of your bladder, however potent or appropriate you may think it may be.
Haider ‘was double speed limit’
BBC
October 12, 2008
Austrian far-right politician Joerg Haider was driving at twice the speed limit when he died in a crash early on Saturday, court officials have said. Mr Haider, 58, was travelling alone at 142km/h (88mph) in a 70km/h zone when his Volkswagen Phaeton V6 crashed…
Stefan:
“What I mean is that there is a moral line in my opinion… I wouldn’t say anyone here has clearly crossed it (besides Ultimate Hater). We just need to be careful of what is said and how it is said… not just for our interactions with others but also our own conscience and sense of what we do in the face of people we disagree with.
I just find that some components of anti-fascism tend to approach a reverse example of fascist hatred (ie Ultimate Hater’s rant). Would you agree that this can sometimes be the case, Andy?”
OK.
A few points.
Inre moral lines and Joerg Haider’s death, I’m assuming that the contours of this line are shaped by more general expectations of what is permissible to express regarding the dead; of whom, presumably, one should not speak badly… or, alternatively, should not mock… or, perhaps, do either or both only when a sufficient amount of time has passed. Trivialising Haider’s death — in this instance, by referring to his graduation from the fictitious driving school of a neo-Nazi who died in similar circumstances — is, if not immoral, at least questionable. This is especially so insofar as doing so risks accumulating aspects of ‘fascist’ thought and practice to an ostensibly oppositional or ‘anti-fascist’ politics.
This, at least, and in brief, is what I understand your position to be.
So: generally speaking, I agree with you that ‘we’ — that is, each person — must reconcile their actions with their claimed moral positions. (That is, if they wish to have their claim to be moral agents taken seriously — which is clearly not always the case.) That said, I think there’s a gap (moral, political, theoretical) between individual moral responsibility and the sense of collective responsibility you appear to assume exists on behalf of some community of anti-fascists. Insofar as what you’re suggesting is a certain caution not to necessarily rush to celebrate the rather spectacular death of a (rather spectacular) opponent — to indulge in schadenfreude, as you originally put it — OK, maybe.
In this case, even at risk of being understood by some as being someone without a moral compass, I have to eschew sentimentality.
Let’s assume, for a moment, that the death of any one person is sufficient reason to give anyone still living pause for thought. Let’s further suppose that this period of reflection can be quantified as being 60 seconds in length. Suppose someone were to dedicate one minute to prayerful meditation for every one of the six million killed in the “orderly” Holocaust conducted, in part, by the “honourable” men of the SS.
By my calculations, it would be almost 11 and a half years before they finished their meditations.
So, mr. law and order was driving illegally, potentially endangering the lives of others and killed himself?
Pretty much, yeah. As Howard Sattler put it: Good riddance to bad rubbish. Austria is obviously on the verge of being in the grip of a rich, middle-aged crime wave. Any innocent Austrian citizen could be a victim of their madness. A reliance on corporate welfare, poor family values, a lenient justice system and fellow socialites — aka ‘do-gooders’ — are to blame: it’s about time police started to crackdown on law-breakers like Haider. (Er, if he weren’t dead already.)
*sob*
@ndy, you incompetent fucktard.
Joerg Haider wasn’t a nazi. Get your facts straight before posting bullshit on your mediocre blog.
BadGuy.
Joerg Haider was a neo-Nazi.
nazis are great, lets hope they make a comeback
onya mate
Geez mate,
Car crashes are funny as long as it isn’t your mum or sister eh?
So does everyone that disagrees with your position deserve to die in a ‘kin car crash?
If someone’s speeding — Haider’s car was travelling at 142 km/h (88 mph) or faster, more than twice the legal speed limit of 70 km/h (43 mph) — and off-their-tits — Haider’s blood alcohol level at the time of the crash was 1.8%, more than three times the legal limit of 0.5% — then there’s a fair chance they’ll have an accident.