- Update : Mark Bastard is really really upset. In response to a question (“This from a silly who boasts about how he and his mates are going to beat me up? On an Internet forum?”) he writes “nice side-step [shit] for brains, but the one barrier me and my buddies have regarding beating the [shit] out of you is your anonymity. so basically you can hide behind that, but if so you don’t really have a leg to stand on as far as calling me out for making internet threats and not following through. Give me your name, address, daytime and night time contact phone numbers, and I promise you I will beat the fucking [shit] out of you and then make a black man take a [shit] in your face.” Doug really does have some terrific friends… Oh yeah, when I asked Mark to provide his details, he then proceeded to provide one of his mate’s presumed names, addresses and mobile phone number!
Oh dear.
On a thread on a forum hosted by the Sydney-based online music zine Bombshell, Doug Smith of local band Bulldog Spirit writes the following:
Mr 47
Eagle RockJoined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 12826
Location: Beowulf is a dudePostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Twinklebutt wrote:
You would have to call that a pretty unsuccessful boycott.
A bunch of bands half from interstate that have never played there and wouldn[‘]t have played there anyway hahaha.
The guy that does that boycott thing has it in for me and Bulldog Spirit so bad. He basically thinks I am the fu[e]hrer reincarnated. I can’t remember his webpage, but it[‘]s worth looking at. I’m sure if you googled “doug smith” and “bulldog spirit” you would find it. It’s some anarchy thing.
He emailed all the bands at Wasted and told them that we were a nazi band.
His sources include the illustrious Melbourne Punx Forum which for what seems like a decade has consisted of anonymous posters calling everyone nazis.
He thinks his identity is secret but he has a shop called 1+1=3=8 [sic] on Sydney Road in Brunswick that prints leftist t-shirts with spelling errors and stuff. I fronted him about the [shit] that he talks on the internet it [sic] but he denied it.
He was also wanted for questioning in relation to an old woman getting bashed when he left his teddy bear behind on someone[‘]s front door step at three o’clock in the morning.
Top guy.
After having intervened on the thread in question, I received a number of thoughtful responses. Here’s one:
:ohno:
Mark BastardJoined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 7481
Location: ass2ass lolPostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: Reply with quote
@ndy you’re a fucking idiot mate and you better watch your back because when me and my mates are out and about, if we see you, ur dead
And here’s another, from the same Bastard:
:ohno:
Mark BastardJoined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 7495
Location: ass2ass lolPostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Reply with quote
@ndy im still going to bash you, fukn gooknigger scum
Not very nice, but also based on a misapprehension: I do not work at the business in question, and never have. As well as having pointed this out on the thread in question, I asked Doug why he believed I worked at this shop, what was the source of his information, and why he believed it was a legitimate action to publish the job location of an anti-racist activist in this fashion. Unfortunately, Doug is yet to reply to these questions.
In many respects, Doug’s attempt at intimidation is the same as that attempted by one of his fellow supporters of The Birmy — Chunga, of the band The Worst — only while Doug wrote “He thinks his identity is secret but”, Chunga opted for ‘Anyway… anarchy is a fag… that’s all I have to say to you Mr Moran… See how fast words travel my friends? Be careful what you write on the internet…”
Speaking of which, another person, giving the name ‘Joel’ — the name of the drummer in the band Bulldog Spirit, about whom the Bombshell thread was partly concerned — posted the following:
Joel | [email protected]
Honestly, I am going to fucking kill you. I hope it was worth it.
Note also that someone using the handle ‘Birmy HammerSkinz’ has acknowledged the assault upon a black woman on the night of the 2006 ISD gig, claiming that the woman in question was asking for it.
At this stage, none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above, and have in fact acted as a kind of demented cheer squad for Doug and The Birmy Hotel.
Unfortunately, the forum is down at the moment… but up on YouTube, for a very limited time I expect, you can view the execution video for which a Russian neo-Nazi was a few weeks ago fined for distributing online. It depicts the beheading of one young man and the shooting death of another — for the crime of not being ‘white’ — and is extremely graphic. Perhaps these pictures, if viewed, will help explain why neo-Nazi groups such as Blood & Honour and the Hammerskins have no place in our pubs or in our cities.
Pride. Strength. Honour. // Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer
To be continued…
That, my friends, is what we call “comedy gold”. I feel sorry for the guy in the shop, though.
I spoke to Andy yesterday…
“At this stage, none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above, and have in fact acted as a kind of demented cheer squad for Doug and The Birmy Hotel.”
Ah bullshit and outright lies Andy.
Adam, Smut, Bosma and myself explic[i]tly answered this issue and objected to both racial vilification and also your slander and mistruths.
Why did you not once mention there was over 4 pages of people rationally discussing this with you?
You however, ignored numerous questions regarding the boycott and also on your stance towards freedom of speech and lawful right of assembly, whether the views that particular group spouts is horrible or not.
Why was this not mentioned?
You have also distorted and manipulated the tru[t]h with this post, as Doug did not start the thread as implied – he was answering someone[‘]s query about the boycott.
As [I] stated on the previous forum Andy, you are a liar, a hypocrite and no better than the trash that you fight against.
Dion, if you wish to dispute my characterisations, feel free. But providing evidence would help. So don’t simply assert “bullshit”, demonstrate it. Provide examples, for example, of where posters on Bombshell have not acted as a demented cheer squad for Doug. Quote Adam, $mut, Bosma and yourself to this effect.
Note that when I say “to the above”, I mean nobody had objected, at that point, to Doug publishing my presumed work address — in fact, still haven’t — or to Mark Bastard writing “@ndy you’re a fucking idiot mate and you better watch your back because when me and my mates are out and about, if we see you, ur dead” and “@ndy im still going to bash you, fukn gooknigger scum”. Maybe I missed something? If so, I’m sure you’ll enlighten me.
“Why did you not once mention there was over 4 pages of people rationally discussing this with you?”
Rationally discussing what, exactly? The thread has been marked precisely by an absence of serious discussion. If I could be bothered, later I’ll provide some examples of the sterling quality of the discussion, which has now reached 11 pages in length.
“You however, ignored numerous questions regarding the boycott and also on your stance towards freedom of speech and lawful right of assembly, whether the views that particular group spouts is horrible or not.”
This is incorrect, and demonstrably so. For example, I wrote:
“You have also distorted and manipulated the tru[t]h with this post, as Doug did not start the thread as implied – he was answering someone[’]s query about the boycott.”
This statement makes no sense. Where do I “imply” that Doug started the thread in some fashion? What I wrote seems pretty straightforward to me: “On a thread on a forum hosted by the Sydney-based online music zine Bombshell, Doug Smith of local band Bulldog Spirit writes the following…”
The relevant words being “on a thread”. That is, somewhere on a thread, Doug wrote blah blah blah. I also don’t see how this point is at all important. Neither do I see how it’s an example of the distortion and manipulation of the truth. Thus I’m more than happy to concede that the conversation concerning The Birmy was triggered by 1) Doug writing “Go The Birmy” followed by 2) cleo writing “isn’t there some kind of neo-nazi link to the birmy or something?” followed by 3) Doug elaborating on why this is a “beat up”.
And?
To assert that, on the basis of the above, I am a liar, a hypocrite, and no better than a neo-Nazi bonehead, is just plain silly.
PAGE TWO
cleo : tbqh bosma i was just bored and looking to get a rise out of someone.
HEIL HITLER.
did you just call me a poof?
Lo-Rez : hey doug if it helps I will come to a BS show and pose with members of the band to give you ethnix cred
twat called mike : omfg stfu!
LuketheSame : how do you pronounce your name @ndy? ‘At-ndy’? or is it meant to be ‘Andy’?
lugs : andy you have blog mate…you fucking girl…A blog!!!
maddyhatesyou : Dear righteous rube… People like you make me squirm…
:ohno: : @ndy you’re a fucking idiot mate and you better watch your back because when me and my mates are out and about, if we see you, ur dead
Pat2 : MORE DEAD NIGGERS … I once went to the pub on the same night as Hitler’s “b’day” so looks like I am GUILTY AS CHARGED and should be put to death by hanging just like the DIRTY NIGGER that I am.
theDedication : this was all a very interesting read…shaving my head and going to bash jews now…see you at the birmingham for a beer afterwards
PAGE THREE
cleo : oh man what a giant douche
😀 adam : Your agenda requires that [Doug] personally champion a political cause that you endorse. Well guess what, sunshine – fuck you. You can get fucked… Why don’t you set up a boycott of doctors and police, they cause more harm than any political organisation.
lugs : andy=internet gladys kravitz
you know any of this firsthand andy?? All the gangs you listed on your website are not even the ones to worry about i have been and go to government security meetings [and?] these gangs/types hardly rate a mention…
you know fuck all you light weight…
hilton perez for nazis
xor : Hey lets name drops some notorious gangs to seem hard.
Forgotten joke poster?
deem : I hate SHARPS. I’m as much against racism/nazis as the next young white suburban guy, but fuck those guys.
Lo-Rez : why are you overlooking me andy? is it because I’m not white? … You’re the kind of person that puts race relations back about 30 years.
:ohno: : @ndy im still going to bash you, fukn gooknigger scum
Pat2 : MORE DEAD NIGGERS
whatnext? : hey doug i think… @ndy has a [gay] crush on you
:ohno: : fuck i hate left-wing fascist humanities student retards like @ndy
PAGE FOUR
BirmyHammerSkinz : i dont think u have the right to fucking breath[e] u piece of [shit]. if you like gooks so much why dont you fuck off to some gook country and see how much they tolerate mouthy cunts such as yourself. then you may see why we dont want the scum to do the same here
dion : of course [neo-Nazis] should be allowed to assemble.
just like left aligned groups should be allowed to do the same.
and then i can walk past both groups and laugh at the pitiful [shit] you both peddle…
maddyhatesyou : Andy are you sitting in a dark room wrapped in tinfoil with coathangers all over the roof to stop the nazis reading your though[t]s right now??? DON’T LOOK OUT THE WINDOW DUDE!! recently paroled nazis are milling about oi-ing for your blood!!!!
BirmyHammerSkinz : why the fuck would i do that when im too busy trying to fix australia from being destroyed by people like you. the gooks can sort their own [shit] out. it took the mighty white race plenty of time to get to where it is and outside scum shouldnt be helped, they get it too easy as it is. open the floodgates and let the cunts in you probably say, and wait and watch as they make the most of our freedom without wanting to give any of it back. we’ll be a fascist state because of so called anti fascists like you in about 20 years because of your inaction on stopping the yellow peril. wait until they take over and then take away your rights. they’ve already helped make one of the best prime ministers ever lose his own seat so dont doubt their ability to greatly affect this country… and reading earlier you were very concerned about some of us hassling a negroid girl, well did you stop to think there may have been a reason? she was foul, spitting on people, drinking goon, making a fool of herself and she had what was coming. anyway mate youre a goose and i think you should put your money where your mouth is
cleo : oh man you are such an almighty cock overlord
jesus andy, way to cut and paste bits and pieces as you see fit…
again you have lied and taken bits and pieces as you see fit to [h]elp your “cause”
way to not post anything where people like adam, expressed support for your boycott but not your ideals and way of presenting them
i’m not even going to bother with this any more.
coming from a Jewish family of Holocaust [survivors], i assert you do more harm than good and [alienate] many from a good idea with go nowhere rhetoric and elitist ramblings…
good bye…
Please stop promoting nazism on the internet.
For the record, the following contains every post, except the first few (which are not relevant to the discussion), by dion, that appear in the first six pages of the thread — as well as all of my responses to him (but not all of my posts) from the same six pages.
D1)
D2)
A1)
A2)
A3)
A4)
A5)
A6)
A7)
D3)
A8)
D4)
A9)
D5)
A10)
D6)
A11)
D7)
D8)
“jesus andy, way to cut and paste bits and pieces as you see fit…”
Yes dion, it’s what writers do: quote the relevant passages. Thus:
You dispute my characterisation of the nature of the discussion on Bombshell, in which respect I wrote:
“At this stage, none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above, and have in fact acted as a kind of demented cheer squad for Doug and The Birmy Hotel.”
My intention in quoting the passages you find above was to illustrate my point; it’s a barrage of nonsense.
Secondly, as I’ve already stated, when I wrote that “none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above”, by the above I meant specifically:
1) Doug’s publishing my alleged work address and;
2) Mark’s racist abuse and threats of violence.
In the comment above, I’ve reproduced, in full, all of your comments from the first six — not four — pages on the thread. At not point do you object to:
1) Doug’s publishing my alleged work address and;
2) Mark’s racist abuse and threats of violence.
Neither did Adam, $mut or Bosma. In fact, not only have neither you, nor these three people, nor anybody else on Bombshell, objected to this, they have in fact supported Doug’s publication of my alleged work address.
“again you have lied and taken bits and pieces as you see fit to [h]elp your “cause””
I haven’t told any lies.
Again, if you believe I’ve told a lie:
1) Specify exactly what this lie consists of;
2) Provide evidence for your contention.
Or to put it another way:
Dion, if you wish to dispute my characterisations, feel free. But providing evidence would help. So don’t simply assert “bullshit”, demonstrate it. Provide examples, for example, of where posters on Bombshell have not acted as a demented cheer squad for Doug. Quote Adam, $mut, Bosma and yourself to this effect.
“way to not post anything where people like adam, expressed support for your boycott but not your ideals and way of presenting them.”
Yes dion, I post what I want to post. Not what you do. That’s your job. If you want to post what Adam wrote, or what anyone else wrote, go ahead. In any case, as I’ve said again and again and now again, I made two claims regarding the discussion: one, at no point did anyone object to Doug publishing my alleged work address or the racist abuse I received and two; the discussion as a whole was demented, and aimed at exonerating Doug.
“i’m not even going to bother with this any more.”
That’s obviously your prerogative.
“coming from a Jewish family of Holocaust [survivors], i assert you do more harm than good and [alienate] many from a good idea with go nowhere rhetoric and elitist ramblings…
good bye…”
That you come from a Jewish family of Holocaust survivors is irrelevant to the discussion, and gives your assertions no more credence than if they were made by someone who was not. Rationality is not a product of familial descent, and descendants of survivors have all kinds of political disagreements with one another, including on the subject of how best to avoid or to prevent the re-emergence of fascist currents.
Finally, my rhetoric is directed at a very specific end: the closure of The Birmy, and my writings are very precise, both in their meaning and in their intent.
If only the same could be said for yours.
For the record, adam’s posts from the first SIX (that’s SIX, not FOUR) pages of the thread (with one or two exceptions in the case of short, irrelevant posts). dion writes: “way to not post anything where people like adam expressed support for your boycott but not your ideals and way of presenting them”; in reality, adam wrote a few words in support of some vague concept of ‘anti-racism’ and expressed opposition to/token support for the boycott.
1)
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:00 pm
I think that you have way too much [time] on your hands, @ndy. I respect and understand your ideology of ‘anti-racism’, and I think that I agree with you for the most part that [racism] is a disease that needs to be stopped.
But I think that you are taking this too far with Doug. I’ve met him (as have many others on this board, of all persuasions and races and colours and creeds) and he is a respectful, intelligent man.
Your agenda requires that he personally champion a political cause that you endorse. Well guess what, sunshine – fuck you. You can get fucked. If some completely deranged internet stalker who wanted to know everything about me came after me, and demanded that I justify my taste in music, politics and lifestyle then I’d probably react in the same fashion.
I think it’s racist that the poor black chick that got attacked was referred to as ‘Blondien’. Surely that’s just salt in the wound?
How about you fight your own fight, let these people do what they do (which is obviously not racist, as they’ve pointed out in clear, numbered points that are easy enough for even I to follow) and get on with your life.
I am glad I don’t care as much as you. It sounds like it would be painful, and take too much time and energy. I just wanna try and enjoy my life. I don’t support neo-nazism, and I don’t support anarchism. I guess any extreme that leads to militancy is the wrong choice, in my view. Any retard can see that neo-nazi sentiments are stupid, and a million people get bashed every day for a million reasons. As someone else said, let these fuckwits speak and they’ll ruin their own cause.
Why don’t you set up a boycott of doctors and police, they cause more harm than any political organisation.
People that sit on the fence get the best view.
2)
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:49 pm
don’t roll your eyes at me, you crazy political person. You actually do have too much time on your hands, you just proved it.
I’m sure you’re a really nice person, I respect what you want to change in the world, and I think the members of Bulldog Spirit have been vindicated. If you have [received] death threats, it is because you are fucking with neo-nazis who probably want to break all of your bones. It is not because of musicians who just want to rock out at a venue that will give them a show.
3)
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:40 pm
He explained that pages ago dude, you are unable to read/listen/whatever happens in cyberspace.
Seems like you are free to slander whoever the fuck you want, spread rumours about people, describe and expouse individual political beliefs and plaster them all over the ‘net, and make sure that everyone knows where to go to fight these ‘fascist/neo-nazi scum’, and yet it’s not acceptable that you are visible yourself.
I know who I am, and I happily reject all stupid ideologies/stereotypes/musical lifestyles. I think punk rock is just as stupid as skinhead lifestyle, as is disco and techno and massive flares and living like you are into the only music that ever mattered.
People are fucking idiots, really. Fuck anyone who needs to dress the same every day for 20 years. It’s a much bigger world than your little scene.
I think that you have made enough obvious threats and announced enough markers for the general public that you should be public yourself. You can’t just point out where people are, who they are, and what they do without standing up and showing yourself. I assume you are scared, which is fair enough – I don’t have the balls to do what you’re doing (i.e. fucking with a minority who don’t have any power anyway, who would love to beat the [shit] out of you) but I also have nothing to do with anyone involved in that scene.
Do you know, I have met thousands and thousands of people in my life, and never once have I had to deal with the skinhead/white power problem. I guess it’s because it DOESN’T AFFECT 99% OF THE POPULATION.
your little clique is irrelevant for most of Australia. Maybe you’re just trying to feel like what you have to say is important.
4)
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:15 pm
You have taken sections of my post, out of context, and twisted them for your own purposes. You are as bad as the media.
I would like to support your anti-racist stance, but you and atndy are making it really hard to feel supportive.
Surprisingly enough, I’m not the enemy. You are not gaining any friends this way. Your aggressive stance is alienating any possible allies you may have found.
How about you just go back to your little clique, and fight the good fight with the 20 or so people who agree with you, and we’ll continue this conversation later – when it still makes no difference to anyone except the few people you know.
You are as bad as the people you are fighting against. Elitist punk rock/ left-wing chicanery makes for exclusive audiences that reject others. You can all get fucked as far as I am concerned.
5)
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:52 am
“Sheesh. I’m beginning to get the feeling that Bombshell is some kinda support group for teenage conformists — who like a little bit of rock ‘n’ roll. Or something.
Does think make brain hurt, “dude”? If so, good. Your mental faculties sorely need exercise.
From what I can gather, you resent my ability to express myself in terms that make you feel all icky inside. I don’t think you understand who you are, really, but whether you do or not, you certainly understand next-to-nothing either about me, or what I’ve written. You’re like someone pounding mud in the expectation that by doing so you’ll create a sculpture. I haven’t made any threats, obvious or not. Instead, it’s quite obvious that you’re threatened by serious debate.
You’re righteously stupid in your pronouncements: “I know”, “I happily reject”, “I think”, “people are”, “I think”, “you can’t”, “I assume”, “I don’t”, “I have”… Consider — for a moment — that other people have different experiences to yours, and as a result, accord different things different priorities in their lives. In summary, whatever you “know”, “happily reject”, “think”, assume about others, command, assume, do or don’t think, have or don’t have, you’re not the centre of the universe.
Grow up.”
Wow. I thought, on reading back through my posts, that I’d made a great deal of sense. And then I got to this.
Note the sections in bold. I am guilty of all of these actions, as they predicate what is usually called ‘living’. If you are unable to accept that these actions, mental or physical, are acceptable parameters for the above ‘living’, I would suggest that, in fact, you have no life.
Maybe you should get a life, and know that this may involve making judgements on what you (sic) “”know”, “happily reject”, “think”, assume about others, command, assume, do or don’t think, have or don’t have”.
I resent your ability to present boring, mindless drivel that isn’t worth reading, you freak. No-one cares. I am anti-racist in my actions, and way of life. I am not worried about a couple of nazi skinheads, because I don’t think that boycotting a pub that hires a room out to anyone who wants it will make any difference. However, for the sake of posterity, I will not drink at the Birmy because it is obviously a haven for white power thugs. There, are you happy? Surprisingly enough, I have never been there and probably never would have gone there. I live in Sydney.
I don’t care about your stupid subculture. Who gives a fuck what ‘real’ skinheads think. You’re as ridiculous as the disco fuckwits that wore 10-inch platform shoes. It’s conforming to a stereotype, and I think if anyone needs to ‘grow up’, it’s the one still playing dress-ups at age 40 .
Why did you get attracted to skinhead culture? Why are you unable to create your own culture, and experience yourself unbound by ritualistic ceremony? Why can[‘]t you just enjoy what you enjoy without a checklist? I like country music, and reggae, and jazz, and folk, and aggressive punk rock, and good trance and psy-trance, and a whole spectrum of things. I’m not restrained by a ‘culture’, and you are trapped in a small box and intentionally marginalising yourselves.
I would like to think that I am a fairly intelligent, informed person. It hurts when you talk down to me in that condescending way. We could have been friends, atndy – I know lots of people in the direct action, crusty anarchist way of life circles. I would usually be happy to support something like your boycott, but you have gone about it in such a deranged, hyper-lucid escalatory way that I find it difficult to champion your cause.
In short, I am disappointed, atndy. We could have had something real, here… something that… made a change.
Crying or Very sad
6)
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:19 am
you are a nazi justnotsteve because you have obviously had a drink at some pub where some dude played once.
Maybe you should just boycott bands and pubs?
For the record, almost all of $mut’s posts, from the first SIX — that is, not just four — pages. Note that, like adam and dion, $mut does not address Doug’s posting my address or Mark’s abuse.
1)
2)
3)
@ndy:
4)
@ndy
@ndy
@ndy
6)
@ndy
bosma:
1)
2)
3)
4)
Pseudonymous bonehead writes: “i dont think u have the right to fucking breath u piece of [shit]. if you like gooks so much why dont you fuck off to some gook country and see how much they tolerate mouthy cunts such as yourself. then you may see why we dont want the scum to do the same here.”
5)
Following another racist outburst by the above bonehead…
6)
PAGE EIGHT:
7)
EIGHT)
PAGE NINE:
@ndy
9)
@ndy I think if anything happened to you the police would need the phone book to look for suspects. May be a good time for you to take a dive and think about just getting on with the job, start attacking the system not the people who are the victims.
If anything happened to me Jim, I imagine those responsible would have more than just the police to worry about. Touch one, touch all, as they say in the classics.
“Touch one, touch all, as they say in the classics.”
That[‘]s funny. You truly have no idea. I could not be bothered with that type of piss and vinegar. I’m sure others are very scared and concerned.
I must admit I am very disappointed that you would take this road @ndy. Are you calling everyone’s bluff by chance?
I have no problem with a debate but don’t use that card with me. Nobody I know think[s] you’re worth a stretch. So just debate and leave the big macho stuff at the door.
For the record, I’ve never threatened anybody over the internet, and don’t intend to start now. I have no idea who the “Joel” was who made the threat, nor do I care, nor should you for that matter. It’s pointless. Over the years I’ve been threatened a number of times over the net, nothing has ever come of it.
Also for the record, I never played for Fortress, nor have I traveled to Europe, (though I hope to someday). You are correct with the rest of it, I certainly played with Ravenous, recorded with Bail Up! and Death’s Head. I’ve never denied any of this. I don’t know of Doug ever denying this, or that he has ever been “loose with truth” either, as you suggested.
You also wrote: “my understanding is that BS have been hostile to anti-racist activism from the start, especially SHARP. that’s their prerogative”
Based on what? My having played for these bands in the past? Putting that aside I can say honestly the other members of the band (Doug, Ben and Phill) certainly would never want to promote politics through music. They are just three very talented guys who love music and love to play music. Just like I do. Anybody is welcome to come and see BS play, and many do, every time we play.
Secondly, I don’t know of any SHARP skins in Melbourne at this time, maybe there are some around, I wouldn’t know. There were some a few years back and they were scum. Not for their politics, but for the people they were, and for their actions. I used to know a few of them way back when I played for GGF, and one night at a gig in Geelong I intervened as around 4 of them kicked and beat a 15 year old or so kid. They nearly knocked him out, and very nearly blinded him, if it wasn’t for myself and a few other people. The reason? This “kid” didn’t like ska music, he preferred metal. True story, and from that night I had nothing to do with any of them. I’m sure had you been witness to this, and the other cowardly shit these people used to do, you would have arrived at the same conclusion that I did.
Joel (the drummer from Bulldog Spirit).
Hi Joel,
Thanks for your comment. I’m glad to hear that the Joel who left a message on my blog is not the Joel who drums for Bulldog Spirit.
I’ll respond more fully later.
That may be so, and I tend to agree, but for various reasons, I like to know who’s making threats, if possible, and this person obviously wanted me to think that it was you, not them, who was determined to expedite my journey across the Styx.
When I initially asked Doug about this, he replied that you’d ‘played in other bands before BS’.
This wasn’t exactly a shocking revelation.
More to the point, Doug didn’t name these bands, nor indicate that they were anything other than your average rock ‘n’ roll band.
July 16, 2007: “Oh @ndy you’re still going. This is getting tedious. No Joel does not “moonlight” in any other bands. He has previously played in other bands but does no longer.”
Technically correct, but not exactly forthcoming, especially given the context. In other words, I believe Doug was indeed being economical with the truth. Note that his remark was made in response to what I think was a fairly straightforward question:
Rod/ney is, as far as I’m aware, still performing with Bail Up!, and is a Hammerskin. According to a fascist informant, he’s very good friends with Fiona, who handles BS merchandising via Deadset — this would certainly help explain why she attended the 2006 ISD gig and, presumably, the 2007 gig…
Be that as it may, I simply don’t think it’s possible, or credible, for someone to have played with or recorded for one of these bands — Bail Up!, Deaths Head, Ravenous — let alone all three, without endorsing their political perspective. In other words, whatever you happen to believe now, you once joined in the chorus for ‘more dead niggers’, ‘kill a commie for christ’, and all the other batshittery associated with neo-Nazism, B&H and the Hammerskins, and the political ideology and practice of these three bands in particular.
‘That was then and this is now’ is not an explanation, nor does it suggest anything other than the inevitable passage of time; certainly, no change or reversal in perspective is thereby indicated. And no “denial” has been necessary because to this point there has been no acknowledgement — certainly none that I’m aware of, and despite having raised the issue many months ago at the beginning of the year.
I base this on Doug’s account of the band’s Melbourne tour in 2002, as well as the accounts of others (non-SHARPs) of their interactions with the band. More specifically, however, is the band’s refusal to denounce scum like B&H and the Hammerskins. Further, to not only refuse to endorse a boycott of The Birmy, but to undermine it by playing and organising gigs there. Further, Doug in particular (and Ben and Phill) has done so via two bands: BS and Marching Orders (October 7, November 18, 2006, April 25, 2007).
In addition to Doug, Ben has been fairly entertaining; especially when he does his impression of a roadie for Hard Skin…
Minus the sense of humour.
Like Doug, Ben has mistaken me for another Andy: initially claiming that I attended this year’s punk pub crawl; exclaiming that “passifists who don’t run from fights shouldn’t speak so boldly, and give their identity away so freely”; before having the penny finally drop.
Duh.
On a more serious note, Ben — while twying tewwibwy hard not to sound like he’s endorsing the views of “people of right wing persuasion” (ie, neo-Nazis) — has also taken the opportunity, writing as a nasty ‘Commie Killer’, to exclaim “Fuck Stalin, fuck you commies and fuck you stupid fucking anarchist pieces of shit. Fucking die already. We would all be better off.”
Dunno ’bout Phill.
And yeah, having played for Bail Up!, Death’s Head and Ravenous, would suggest a certain degree of hostility towards Skin Heads Against Racial Prejudice.
Finally, the SHARPs you encountered in Geelong do sound like scum. But: 1) obviously, being a skinhead against — not for — racial prejudice, doesn’t mandate bashing 15 year old kids who don’t like ska and; 2) this incident doesn’t say anything much about the politics of SHARP. So: I reckon if you asked 100 SHARPs their opinion, 99 would agree with you (“cowardly shit”).
Ok, where to begin? As I said earlier, I do read your blog, and have not threatened you in any manner, nor would I. Why would I threaten someone’s life whom I’m not likely to ever meet? Apart from being pretty stupid to threaten someone’s life in the first place, it certainly doesn’t make any sense.
I sometimes wonder whether we met in the past, and I say that because I met a guy a couple of times who lived in Easey Street, near the Birmy, it would have been 2000, or 2001, and we got talking about politics, B&H and a number of other issues. He suggested I join a group called “Angry People” because of my dissatisfaction on a number of issues around the world. I don’t remember his name, but he reminded me a little of Robert Smith from The Cure in his appearance. I don’t know what happened to him.
My point in the previous post when I mentioned the SHARPS (and I didn’t explain this very well) was simply to point out that if there was any opposition to SHARP in Melbourne it was generally to those people as individuals, politics aside. Most punks I know looked upon these guys as arseholes, even though they would have probably agreed with their politics. It’s a very insular view, but you will find a lot of people base their opinions on their own experiences, ie: if the only SHARPS you ever met were these people, your opinion wouldn’t be too high. I think the same goes the other way, I know people with right wing politics who are very decent, law abiding citizens, who (believe it or not) live quite normal lives and have quite normal families, then again, I’ve also known my fair share of people from the right who are nothing but mugs.
As for my own opinions, you suggested not much has changed but the passage of time. Haven’t your opinions changed a little over the years? Surely they would have at some level and on some issues. I’ve got some opinions you may disagree with, but then you’d be surprised that we do agree on some things.
I shake my head often at the current direction the world is heading. I think about the perilous state we are in and wonder how long things will go on as they are. I look at events such as 9/11 (even though there’s a lot of doubt in my mind as to who was responsible) and I’m horrified that someone goes to work and gets smacked in the mouth by a 737, but what’s the difference between that event and the tens of thousands of innocents who’ve been blown apart in Iraq and Afghanistan by the “Coalition of the willing”? Similar with events like the Beslan massacre. I watched that and noted the world’s reaction to the perpetrators, though very little ever gets mentioned of the countless children in Chechnya who’ve been butchered by the Russian army. Similar to Waco, Texas. What gives the Government the right to kill a group of people just because they don’t want to be a part of the New World Order? We could go on forever, about the countless conflicts and events throughout the world, it makes for interesting discussion. My point is that whatever your opinions or beliefs are I don’t think it’s ok to butcher innocent people for them. I think if I was being stood up against a wall it would matter very little to me if the bullet was coming from a Communist or Fascist, or a Christian or a Muslim. Where does your ideology go when you’ve just copped it in the neck?
I also think that when the final day comes it’s not really going to matter what you think or what your opinions are. A little morbid I know, but it is my view.
Anyway, enough rambling, and back to other issues, such as that band I currently play with, Bulldog Spirit. I’ve always been fascinated by the need to draw a line in the sand. As I said previously, anybody is welcome to come to one of our shows. I play drums for them because I love music, all kinds of music. I’ve got no interest in the band getting political, because my opinions are my own. It wouldn’t make any difference if I was playing ACDC covers in a dive bar night after night. I play music because it’s my passion, it’s my escape from the daily grind. As for the other guys, I’m certain they agree with me.
That’s all for the time being. Joel.
1)
2)
Never lived in Easey Street.
Angry People I know — in 1995, members and associates, wearing ‘The Only Good Fascist Is A Dead One’ t-shirts, acted as ushers at Nim Chimpsky’s address at Sydney Town Hall. “How we laughed”.
Never been compared to Robert Smith from The Cure in either appearance or demeanour (except, perhaps, in terms of my affection for cats — and not even then).
3)
I get your point about SHARPs. I knew of a few who were members of the Socialist Party (nee Militant Socialist Organisation). A few weeks after I intervened in a dispute in the city involving a handful of this mob and the police, one of them walked past Barricade saying ‘ptoo ptoo ptoo’ as he gestured with his imaginary machine gun and also cried out ‘Kronstadt’.
😆
4)
As for your own opinions… when I wrote: —
— I meant that, simply because time has passed, that doesn’t necessarily mean, in and of itself, that your views have changed. So, if one assumes that you shared the opinions of your bandmates, at some point, and for some period of time, you espoused some version of neo-Nazi ideology. And that’s an assumption I do make, because the alternative is that you were grossly stupid — and you don’t strike me as being grossly stupid.
Whether or not we agree on some things and disagree on others (including the obvious hypocrisy of governments), is very much beside the point, which is: you espoused neo-Nazism. In fact, not only espoused it, but actively promoted it. And the music you helped create continues to promote this ideology: to be sold, to be promoted, and to make money for neo-Nazi distros: Final Stand Records, FYMP, Micetrap, NSM88 and more besides.
When provided with an opportunity to repudiate fascism, you refuse.
You’re not stupid, and neither am I. It’s a cornerstone of Nazi philosophy — and er, practice — that ‘people’ must be butchered; only these people aren’t “innocent”. In fact, for obvious reasons, it’s very difficult to discover an ideology that claims the right to kill the ‘innocent’. Thus even Nazism justified the attempted genocide of Europe’s Jewish population by reference to the claim that the Jews were basically evil, aggressive, and determined to destroy the German nation, whether by way of Capitalism or Communism.
The ideological descendants of Nazism, the neo-Nazis, listen to the music you freely and voluntarily helped to make. It was created precisely in order to reinforce neo-Nazi beliefs. In other words, to function as a form of neo-Nazi propaganda. Your music continues to help financially support neo-Nazi organisations. If you listen to this music, the music you helped to create, its mission is very clear.
http://www.youtube.com/genocidal88
You refuse to acknowledge this.
In fact, there is absolutely no recognition on your part of any degree of responsibility whatsoever for your role in the promotion of neo-Nazi ideology. Instead, you try to gloss over this history by making the observation that as time passes, people change, some things are agreed upon and others aren’t, and by way of stating that “I also think that when the final day comes it’s not really going to matter what you think or what your opinions are. A little morbid I know, but it is my view”; morbid or not, I’ve no idea what you actually mean by this.
For meditations on time and being, see Martin Heidegger, Being and Time. In the meantime:
Doug Smith isn’t a real skinhead! He was born into wealth and is just a tattooed yuppy who emulates the skinhead look. He epitomizes everything on the song “Fake” from Bulldog Spirit’s first album!
Last Strike : Antifascist Skinheads
Marching under swastikas and in the shadow of eagles
Five beating one that is what they call having fun
This brown disease spreads about in our towns
Who will fight back? Antifascist skinhead!
Antifascist skinhead, everyone who is not scared
Let’s face nazis in antifascist struggle
Beat the nazi bastards and punch them not only to their heads
They must lie on huge piles in blood and dust
Violence is the only language they can understand
You will end up in a grave with white flag and smile on your face
Antifascist skinhead, everyone who is not scared
Let’s face nazis in antifascist struggle
They would like to rule us and destroy our lives
And worship Adolf or some other assholes
But children of the working class mustn’t be scared
They have to fight for their place in the world
Antifascist skinhead, everyone who is not scared
Let’s face nazis in antifascist struggle
Capitalist or nazi, the same shit
Kick them to their arses that’s the best propaganda
I don’t need any Führer or any government
I scream for no authority at all
Antifascist skinhead, everyone who is not scared
Let’s face nazis in antifascist struggle
Dug Smiff iz a fucking fag. Hiz mum worked for ASIO. I cannot understand why da fukkin nazis accept this stupid cunt who fucks non-wyte sheelaz!
Um… right.
*sigh*
Doug’s sexuality, his mother’s employment history and so on are, as we both know, irrelevant, especially given that:
1) He published what he alleged was my workplace address;
2) He is the world’s leading expert on skinhead and;
3) He has an intimate knowledge of the local (Melbourne) music industry.
Everyone else is a clueless cunt.
lolz “he is the world’s leafing expert on skinhead”
you’re a fkn moron at-ndy.
you’re a fkn d00d LTS.
lolz
This didn’t age well Andy. You look like a complete gossipy moron.
G’day Pepsimax99,
Props on resurrecting a 15yo thread. If you have something of substance to add, feel free.