Doug Smith Drops A Bombshell

    Update : Mark Bastard is really really upset. In response to a question (“This from a silly who boasts about how he and his mates are going to beat me up? On an Internet forum?”) he writes “nice side-step [shit] for brains, but the one barrier me and my buddies have regarding beating the [shit] out of you is your anonymity. so basically you can hide behind that, but if so you don’t really have a leg to stand on as far as calling me out for making internet threats and not following through. Give me your name, address, daytime and night time contact phone numbers, and I promise you I will beat the fucking [shit] out of you and then make a black man take a [shit] in your face.” Doug really does have some terrific friends… Oh yeah, when I asked Mark to provide his details, he then proceeded to provide one of his mate’s presumed names, addresses and mobile phone number!

Oh dear.

On a thread on a forum hosted by the Sydney-based online music zine Bombshell, Doug Smith of local band Bulldog Spirit writes the following:

Mr 47
Eagle Rock

Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 12826
Location: Beowulf is a dude

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Twinklebutt wrote:

http://birmyboycott.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/

You would have to call that a pretty unsuccessful boycott.

A bunch of bands half from interstate that have never played there and wouldn[‘]t have played there anyway hahaha.

The guy that does that boycott thing has it in for me and Bulldog Spirit so bad. He basically thinks I am the fu[e]hrer reincarnated. I can’t remember his webpage, but it[‘]s worth looking at. I’m sure if you googled “doug smith” and “bulldog spirit” you would find it. It’s some anarchy thing.

He emailed all the bands at Wasted and told them that we were a nazi band.

His sources include the illustrious Melbourne Punx Forum which for what seems like a decade has consisted of anonymous posters calling everyone nazis.

He thinks his identity is secret but he has a shop called 1+1=3=8 [sic] on Sydney Road in Brunswick that prints leftist t-shirts with spelling errors and stuff. I fronted him about the [shit] that he talks on the internet it [sic] but he denied it.

He was also wanted for questioning in relation to an old woman getting bashed when he left his teddy bear behind on someone[‘]s front door step at three o’clock in the morning.

Top guy.

After having intervened on the thread in question, I received a number of thoughtful responses. Here’s one:

:ohno:
Mark Bastard

Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 7481
Location: ass2ass lol

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: Reply with quote

@ndy you’re a fucking idiot mate and you better watch your back because when me and my mates are out and about, if we see you, ur dead

And here’s another, from the same Bastard:

:ohno:
Mark Bastard

Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 7495
Location: ass2ass lol

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Reply with quote

@ndy im still going to bash you, fukn gooknigger scum

Not very nice, but also based on a misapprehension: I do not work at the business in question, and never have. As well as having pointed this out on the thread in question, I asked Doug why he believed I worked at this shop, what was the source of his information, and why he believed it was a legitimate action to publish the job location of an anti-racist activist in this fashion. Unfortunately, Doug is yet to reply to these questions.

In many respects, Doug’s attempt at intimidation is the same as that attempted by one of his fellow supporters of The Birmy — Chunga, of the band The Worst — only while Doug wrote “He thinks his identity is secret but”, Chunga opted for ‘Anyway… anarchy is a fag… that’s all I have to say to you Mr Moran… See how fast words travel my friends? Be careful what you write on the internet…”

Speaking of which, another person, giving the name ‘Joel’ — the name of the drummer in the band Bulldog Spirit, about whom the Bombshell thread was partly concerned — posted the following:

Joel | [email protected]

Honestly, I am going to fucking kill you. I hope it was worth it.

Dec 10, 3:40 PMBNP: Carry On Up the Khyber

Note also that someone using the handle ‘Birmy HammerSkinz’ has acknowledged the assault upon a black woman on the night of the 2006 ISD gig, claiming that the woman in question was asking for it.

At this stage, none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above, and have in fact acted as a kind of demented cheer squad for Doug and The Birmy Hotel.

Unfortunately, the forum is down at the moment… but up on YouTube, for a very limited time I expect, you can view the execution video for which a Russian neo-Nazi was a few weeks ago fined for distributing online. It depicts the beheading of one young man and the shooting death of another — for the crime of not being ‘white’ — and is extremely graphic. Perhaps these pictures, if viewed, will help explain why neo-Nazi groups such as Blood & Honour and the Hammerskins have no place in our pubs or in our cities.

Pride. Strength. Honour. // Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer

To be continued…

About @ndy

I live in Melbourne, Australia. I like anarchy. I don't like nazis. I enjoy eating pizza and drinking beer. I barrack for the greatest football team on Earth: Collingwood Magpies. The 2017 premiership's a cakewalk for the good old Collingwood.
This entry was posted in !nataS, Anti-fascism, Collingwood, Music. Bookmark the permalink.

29 Responses to Doug Smith Drops A Bombshell

  1. Lumpen says:

    He thinks his identity is secret but he has a shop called 1 1=3=8 [sic] on Sydney Road in Brunswick that prints leftist t-shirts with spelling errors and stuff. I fronted him about the [shit] that he talks on the internet it [sic] but he denied it.

    That, my friends, is what we call “comedy gold”. I feel sorry for the guy in the shop, though.

  2. @ndy says:

    I spoke to Andy yesterday…

  3. Dion says:

    “At this stage, none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above, and have in fact acted as a kind of demented cheer squad for Doug and The Birmy Hotel.”

    Ah bullshit and outright lies Andy.

    Adam, Smut, Bosma and myself explic[i]tly answered this issue and objected to both racial vilification and also your slander and mistruths.

    Why did you not once mention there was over 4 pages of people rationally discussing this with you?

    You however, ignored numerous questions regarding the boycott and also on your stance towards freedom of speech and lawful right of assembly, whether the views that particular group spouts is horrible or not.

    Why was this not mentioned?

    You have also distorted and manipulated the tru[t]h with this post, as Doug did not start the thread as implied – he was answering someone[‘]s query about the boycott.

    As [I] stated on the previous forum Andy, you are a liar, a hypocrite and no better than the trash that you fight against.

  4. @ndy says:

    Dion, if you wish to dispute my characterisations, feel free. But providing evidence would help. So don’t simply assert “bullshit”, demonstrate it. Provide examples, for example, of where posters on Bombshell have not acted as a demented cheer squad for Doug. Quote Adam, $mut, Bosma and yourself to this effect.

    Note that when I say “to the above”, I mean nobody had objected, at that point, to Doug publishing my presumed work address — in fact, still haven’t — or to Mark Bastard writing “@ndy you’re a fucking idiot mate and you better watch your back because when me and my mates are out and about, if we see you, ur dead” and “@ndy im still going to bash you, fukn gooknigger scum”. Maybe I missed something? If so, I’m sure you’ll enlighten me.

    “Why did you not once mention there was over 4 pages of people rationally discussing this with you?”

    Rationally discussing what, exactly? The thread has been marked precisely by an absence of serious discussion. If I could be bothered, later I’ll provide some examples of the sterling quality of the discussion, which has now reached 11 pages in length.

    “You however, ignored numerous questions regarding the boycott and also on your stance towards freedom of speech and lawful right of assembly, whether the views that particular group spouts is horrible or not.”

    This is incorrect, and demonstrably so. For example, I wrote:

    dion wrote: well, as in even if you find something someone wants to say… horrible and repellent, do you still grant them the freedom to say it?

    such as white power bands gigging?

    In reality, it’s not in my power to ‘grant’ anyone much of anything. More generally, I think individuals should not be penalised by the state for writing stupid hateful things… like, calling for ‘more dead niggers’ or ‘kill the Jews’ or ‘Carlton for premiers’ or whatever.

    The way I see it, white power gigs aren’t just acts of speech, but organised, public performances. In principle, I don’t support the ‘right’ of fascists to organise in this fashion. On the other hand, it depends on a range of other factors whether or not I think such events should be directly sabotaged.

    Does that answer your question? What do you think?

    “You have also distorted and manipulated the tru[t]h with this post, as Doug did not start the thread as implied – he was answering someone[’]s query about the boycott.”

    This statement makes no sense. Where do I “imply” that Doug started the thread in some fashion? What I wrote seems pretty straightforward to me: “On a thread on a forum hosted by the Sydney-based online music zine Bombshell, Doug Smith of local band Bulldog Spirit writes the following…”

    The relevant words being “on a thread”. That is, somewhere on a thread, Doug wrote blah blah blah. I also don’t see how this point is at all important. Neither do I see how it’s an example of the distortion and manipulation of the truth. Thus I’m more than happy to concede that the conversation concerning The Birmy was triggered by 1) Doug writing “Go The Birmy” followed by 2) cleo writing “isn’t there some kind of neo-nazi link to the birmy or something?” followed by 3) Doug elaborating on why this is a “beat up”.

    And?

    To assert that, on the basis of the above, I am a liar, a hypocrite, and no better than a neo-Nazi bonehead, is just plain silly.

  5. @ndy says:

    Ah bullshit and outright lies Andy. Adam, Smut, Bosma and myself explicitly answered this issue and objected to both racial vilification and also your slander and mistruths. Why did you not once mention there was over 4 pages of people rationally discussing this with you? … As I stated on the previous forum Andy, you are a liar, a hypocrite and no better than the trash that you fight against.

    PAGE TWO

    cleo : tbqh bosma i was just bored and looking to get a rise out of someone.

    HEIL HITLER.

    did you just call me a poof?

    Lo-Rez : hey doug if it helps I will come to a BS show and pose with members of the band to give you ethnix cred

    twat called mike : omfg stfu!

    LuketheSame : how do you pronounce your name @ndy? ‘At-ndy’? or is it meant to be ‘Andy’?

    lugs : andy you have blog mate…you fucking girl…A blog!!!

    maddyhatesyou : Dear righteous rube… People like you make me squirm…

    :ohno: : @ndy you’re a fucking idiot mate and you better watch your back because when me and my mates are out and about, if we see you, ur dead

    Pat2 : MORE DEAD NIGGERS … I once went to the pub on the same night as Hitler’s “b’day” so looks like I am GUILTY AS CHARGED and should be put to death by hanging just like the DIRTY NIGGER that I am.

    theDedication : this was all a very interesting read…shaving my head and going to bash jews now…see you at the birmingham for a beer afterwards

    PAGE THREE

    cleo : oh man what a giant douche

    😀 adam : Your agenda requires that [Doug] personally champion a political cause that you endorse. Well guess what, sunshine – fuck you. You can get fucked… Why don’t you set up a boycott of doctors and police, they cause more harm than any political organisation.

    lugs : andy=internet gladys kravitz

    you know any of this firsthand andy?? All the gangs you listed on your website are not even the ones to worry about i have been and go to government security meetings [and?] these gangs/types hardly rate a mention…

    you know fuck all you light weight…

    hilton perez for nazis

    xor : Hey lets name drops some notorious gangs to seem hard.

    Forgotten joke poster?

    deem : I hate SHARPS. I’m as much against racism/nazis as the next young white suburban guy, but fuck those guys.

    Lo-Rez : why are you overlooking me andy? is it because I’m not white? … You’re the kind of person that puts race relations back about 30 years.

    :ohno: : @ndy im still going to bash you, fukn gooknigger scum

    Pat2 : MORE DEAD NIGGERS

    whatnext? : hey doug i think… @ndy has a [gay] crush on you

    :ohno: : fuck i hate left-wing fascist humanities student retards like @ndy

    PAGE FOUR

    BirmyHammerSkinz : i dont think u have the right to fucking breath[e] u piece of [shit]. if you like gooks so much why dont you fuck off to some gook country and see how much they tolerate mouthy cunts such as yourself. then you may see why we dont want the scum to do the same here

    dion : of course [neo-Nazis] should be allowed to assemble.

    just like left aligned groups should be allowed to do the same.

    and then i can walk past both groups and laugh at the pitiful [shit] you both peddle…

    maddyhatesyou : Andy are you sitting in a dark room wrapped in tinfoil with coathangers all over the roof to stop the nazis reading your though[t]s right now??? DON’T LOOK OUT THE WINDOW DUDE!! recently paroled nazis are milling about oi-ing for your blood!!!!

    BirmyHammerSkinz : why the fuck would i do that when im too busy trying to fix australia from being destroyed by people like you. the gooks can sort their own [shit] out. it took the mighty white race plenty of time to get to where it is and outside scum shouldnt be helped, they get it too easy as it is. open the floodgates and let the cunts in you probably say, and wait and watch as they make the most of our freedom without wanting to give any of it back. we’ll be a fascist state because of so called anti fascists like you in about 20 years because of your inaction on stopping the yellow peril. wait until they take over and then take away your rights. they’ve already helped make one of the best prime ministers ever lose his own seat so dont doubt their ability to greatly affect this country… and reading earlier you were very concerned about some of us hassling a negroid girl, well did you stop to think there may have been a reason? she was foul, spitting on people, drinking goon, making a fool of herself and she had what was coming. anyway mate youre a goose and i think you should put your money where your mouth is

    cleo : oh man you are such an almighty cock overlord

    At this stage, none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above, and have in fact acted as a kind of demented cheer squad for Doug and The Birmy Hotel.

  6. Dion says:

    jesus andy, way to cut and paste bits and pieces as you see fit…

    again you have lied and taken bits and pieces as you see fit to [h]elp your “cause”

    way to not post anything where people like adam, expressed support for your boycott but not your ideals and way of presenting them

    i’m not even going to bother with this any more.

    coming from a Jewish family of Holocaust [survivors], i assert you do more harm than good and [alienate] many from a good idea with go nowhere rhetoric and elitist ramblings…

    good bye…

  7. christine says:

    Please stop promoting nazism on the internet.

  8. @ndy says:

    For the record, the following contains every post, except the first few (which are not relevant to the discussion), by dion, that appear in the first six pages of the thread — as well as all of my responses to him (but not all of my posts) from the same six pages.

    D1)

    Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:28 pm

    i know that shop and [it] gives me the shits every time i walk past it…

    D2)

    Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:11 pm

    that andy dude doesn’t like doug much at all…

    A1)

    Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:54 pm

    Mr 47 wrote: “You would have to call that a pretty unsuccessful boycott.”

    That depends on how you look at it Doug.

    First, over the course of the last year or so, there’s been a definite decrease in the number of gigs talking place at The Birmy. Secondly, bands — such as The Worst — have complained that when gigs have taken place, there have been less punters as a result. Thirdly, at least one of the bands that have played The Birmy in the last year — Final Warning — have since come out in support of the boycott (and consequently will no longer perform there).

    As for bands from interstate not playing The Birmy, a gig with six hardcore bands from Geelong, Newcastle and Sydney was scheduled for June 22 this year. After contacting the bands — Crosscheck, Speartackle and Tenth Dan in particular — explaining the reasons for the boycott, and asking for their support, they agreed to cancel the gig.

    In general, word is slowly spreading, among bands, promoters and punters, that a boycott has been called for. Some support it, a few do not. The point is, if you compare the situation before, with the situation now, The Birmy has suffered a financial penalty for hosting neo-Nazi gangs — and will continue to do so. This has the ancillary benefit of sending a message to other proprietors: providing a platform for neo-Nazis is bad for business.

    Mr 47 wrote: “The guy that does that boycott thing has it in for me and Bulldog Spirit so bad. He basically thinks I am the fuhrer reincarnated. I can’t remember his webpage, but its worth looking at. I’m sure if you googled “doug smith” and “bulldog spirit” you would find it. It’s some anarchy thing.”

    The boycott is actually supported by a group of people — I just happen to be the most vocal. And Doug, I don’t think that you’re the fuehrer reincarnated — just a naughty boy.

    Mr 47 wrote: “He emailed all the bands at Wasted and told them that we were a nazi band.”

    No, I did not. Nor do I think that BS “is a nazi band”. Insofar as the band’s lyrics are concerned, they, like Doug, could be classified as fairly dull, and (politically) conservative. However, the fact that the drummer, Joel, is a bonehead — a neo-Nazi “skinhead” — who’s played, recorDed and toured with neo-Nazi bands such as Deaths Head, Fortress and Ravenous, does make me wonder exactly what BS is on about.

    Mr 47 wrote: “His sources include the illustrious Melbourne Punx Forum which for what seems like a decade has consisted of anonymous posters calling everyone nazis.”

    Sources for what, exactly? About BS? If so, this is incorrect. My ‘sources’ are diverse.

    Mr 47 wrote: “He thinks his identity is secret but he has a shop called 1 1=3=8 on Sydney Road in Brunswick that prints leftist t-shirts with spelling errors and stuff. I fronted him about the jobbie that he talks on the internet it but he denied it.”

    Again, this is incorrect. I don’t have a shop called 1 1 (or whatever) on Sydney Road. Why you think this information is accurate, and where you obtained it, on the other hand, is an interesting question.

    Mr 47 wrote: “anyone can hire the back room. the drama happened when blood and honour had a little ian stuart birthday gig there. i think twice even. the last one was at the croatian club. maybe they [sic] pc facists [sic] can pick on that place instead of a small businessman supporting the punk scene.”

    Gary is a small businessman, but he’s not supporting the punk scene; elements of the punk scene are supporting him running a business. Y’know… making money?

    It’s true that anyone can hire the back room. It’s also true that B&H Australia — in conjunction with the Southern Cross Hammerskins — organised the ISD memorial gig on September 23 last year at The Birmy. They also organised the gig there in 2005 (in 2004 it was held at The Jam Tin in Cheltenham) and in years previous. In fact, The Birmy has been the regular host for the ISD gig for years — ever since it came under Gary’s management. Gary’s also allowed neo-Nazis to organise other gigs at The Birmy — for example, in 2002 to celebrate Hitler’s birthday — and to hold meetings. This explains why the pub has developed a reputation as a neo-Nazi pub — a reputation it obtained long before last year’s gig and the boycott which followed closely on its heels.

    It’s also worth noting in this context that on the night of last year’s gig, a half-dozen or so punters accosted a black woman on Johnston Street, surrounded her, and wouldn’t allow her to leave until she’d agreed to call herself a “black c**t”.

    These are the sorts of people Gary invites to Fitzroy.

    As for this years’ gig, it was held at the Melbourne Croatia Social Club. You can read about it. For example: Neo-Nazis split Croat community, Greg Roberts, The Australian, October 27, 2007.

    Exactly how do you think that information was obtained Doug?

    Quote: “…The concert was organised by the Australian chapters of neo-Nazi skinhead groups Blood and Honour and Southern Cross Hammer Skins. Group members in the US and Europe have been convicted of assaults, bombings and murders.

    Anti-Semitic messages from the Knights’ Croatian fans are posted on the Knights Army Forum website. One posting says Jews would “sell their mothers for a dollar”.

    Melbourne campaigner Cam Smith said anti-racism activists alerted the Knights to the nature of the concert several hours before it started. “As soon as we found out, we contacted whoever we could at the Knights through phone numbers on their website,” Mr Smith said. “They weren’t interested. One of their people asked one of our people if he was a dirty Jew.”

    Mr Tomas said he did not know who was attending the concert, but he would investigate Mr Smith’s claim that Knights members were contacted, adding: “I don’t associate with that sort of scum. I’m utterly disgusted about this.”

    Mr Tomas said the concert was approved by the Croatia Social Club, a separate legal entity to the football club.

    Contacted by The Weekend Australian, social club manager Catarina Malacic denied the event was held. “There was nothing on at the venue that night,” she said.”

    Sounds familiar.

    A2)

    Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:05 pm

    Doug:

    “A “freak” eh? So I’ve been promoted from being a “clueless Rex Hunt”?

    Sweet.

    I’m glad to hear you acknowledge that your drummer played in those bands. You do realise that Deaths Head had songs like ‘More Dead Niggers’, of course. And that Fortress played the ISD gig at the MCSC you refer to. And that the only reason you can is because ‘freaks’ like me are paying attention.

    Anyway, here’s a sample of their lyrics:

    Fortress, ‘Parasites’:

    Reject an alien government, don’t recognise their laws
    It’s time to close the floodgates, it’s time to shut the door
    Repatriate, ship ’em out, send the bastards back
    If they don’t fucking like it, it’ll be in body bags
    Get out! We don’t want you around
    Get out! Want the people to shout
    Get out! Get outta my sight
    Get out! Parasites… Parasites… Parasites

    “Top guy”, Joel.

    And for the record, I’m assuming you can read. You’ll therefore have read this:

    “No, I did not. Nor do I think that BS “is a nazi band”. Insofar as the band’s lyrics are concerned, they, like Doug, could be classified as fairly dull, and (politically) conservative. However, the fact that the drummer, Joel, is a bonehead — a neo-Nazi “skinhead” — who’s played, recorDed and toured with neo-Nazi bands such as Deaths Head, Fortress and Ravenous, does make me wonder exactly what BS is on about.”

    So please forgive me if I don’t take your word on the subject of whether or not Joel is still a bonehead. In my experience, you tend to be a fairly unreliable source of accurate information.

    cole:

    I think I’m someone who lives in Melbourne, who’s a music fan, who doesn’t like fascism, and is prepared to do something about it. If that makes me a “douchebag” in your opinion, believe it or not I’m OK with that.

    The Birmy’s status as a neo-Nazi venue stretches back over 10 years or so. That is, for as long as it’s been managed by Gary. If you really want me to, I’d be happy to re-publish the emails I sent the bands at the time I learnt that they were going to play. Briefly, however, I asked them not to play, and they agreed not to. In fact, they thanked me for alerting them to the pub’s history. If you think that by doing so, that makes me a “douchebag”, believe it or not I’m OK with that.

    Why I’m concerned by the presence of neo-Nazis in Melbourne, especially at a pub in Fitzroy, is two-fold. The first reason is illustrated by the assault on the woman on the night of the gig; also, the assault by a bonehead on another punter at The Tote approximately 12 months before that. Secondly, I have political concerns about allowing such groups to freely organise, that is, to organise without opposition. I also think that taking a stand against violent neo-Nazi associations such as Blood & Honour and the Southern Cross Hammerskins is more important than ensuring the financial success of businesses, such as The Birmy, that support them.

    A3)

    Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:29 am

    G’day Knuckles,

    You called me a “clueless Rex Hunt” on this forum last year. It was in reference not to anything I wrote on my blog but my knowledge of skinhead culture and history (which you estimated as being quite absymal). And while it may flatter your ego — and presumably reinforce your view that you exist at the centre of the universe — I’m not following you around the Internet, I’m following a link to my blog.

    Speaking of which, what you told me on my blog inre Joel (July 16, 2007) was the following: “Oh @ndy you’re still going. This is getting tedious. No Joel does not ”moonlight” in any other bands. He has previously played in other bands but does no longer.” Funnily enough, you didn’t confirm the names of the bands — or make any reference to any members of BS having previously played in neo-Nazi bands — until now. As it was, I had to discover this independently, despite your having previously repeatedly disavowed any link between BS and neo-Nazism, racism or fascism. Damien Ovchynik also notes that Joel helped Bail Up! record some of their material; Bail Up! played the 2007 ISD gig.

    http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=594#comment-104019

    Here’s a question for you Doug: I don’t suppose you know anyone else who’s played for Bail Up!? (Oh, and btw, what’s your definition of “a long time”, and does this include not attending neo-Nazi gigs?)

    Finally, you can assert that you’ve “been 100% up front and honest with you as any person reading your blog could attest to”, but I’m sorry I don’t agree. In reference to which:

    On the one hand…

    You’re right about my having mistakenly identified you as the manager of the band Marching Orders. I wrote that on February 20, you corrected me the next day. I acknowledged my mistake, and corrected the post (“Hi Doug, OK — you play guitar in, not manage, Marching Orders; Joel plays drums in Bulldog Spirit, not Marching Orders: my mistake, and I’ll correct the post.”).

    Secondly, with regards “pictures of people on [my] blog with Joel’s name under them”, there’s exactly one picture on my blog with Joel’s name under it, but I’m afraid you’ve misread the passage. Beneath the photo — taken at the 2006 ISD gig at The Birmy — is the following: ‘Joel (Bulldog Spirit, Death’s Head, Fortress, GGF, Ravenous), April 3, 2007 : “Be sure not to let @ndy see this!”’

    http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=760

    That’s a quote. Joel made that comment on cj’s myspace. cj attended the gig, and that’s him in the photo (cj told me he attended the gig elsewhere on my blog).

    Thirdly, with regards legal action, that’s how I chose to interpret the following comment you made on my blog:

    Quote: “Before you try and slander me or one of my bands in a public forum next time, or if you have some kind of an issue with me as a person which is resulting in this behaviour, please contact me at [email protected] so we can sort things out in advance so these mistakes don’t happen again.

    I mean I’m all for freedom of speech, but this kind of defamation is out of hand.”

    To summarise: in February, shortly after you joined the band on guitar, I mistakenly wrote that you were the manager of Marching Orders. When you wrote to tell me that wasn’t the case, I immediately corrected my post. Note that while this was a mistake, it’s of little or no importance. I mean, you could play the triangle for Marching Orders, and what difference would it make?

    On the other hand…

    You falsely asserted the following, which I’ve corrected, but which you’ve failed to retract, not to mention failed to explain why you believe it:

    Quote: “He thinks his identity is secret but he has a shop called 1 1=3=8 on Sydney Road in Brunswick that prints leftist t-shirts with spelling errors and stuff. I fronted him about the jobbie that he talks on the internet it [sic] but he denied it.

    He was also wanted for questioning in relation to an old woman getting bashed when he left his teddy bear behind on someone[‘]s front door step at three o’clock in the morning.”

    Alleging that someone is wanted for questioning for possibly having assaulted “an old woman”, not to mention publicly asserting their supposed place of work on a thread partially concerning the activities of violent neo-Nazi gangs, is a little more serious than getting someone’s position in a band wrong Doug.

    A4)

    Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:30 pm

    Doug: as usual, you miss the point while also trying to make one. You’re so full of s*h*i*t, if someone gave you an enema you’d fit into a matchbox.

    lugs: yes, I have a blog. No, I’m not a girl.

    In other news, the topic of the thread is The Death of Live Music in Melbourne. The Birmy, as Doug pointed out, has a free function room. Unfortunately, The Birmy is also a neo-Nazi venue, and has been for years, and is therefore subject to a boycott.

    The underlying problem with the live music scene in Melbourne — or most anywhere else — is economic. Almost all live venues are also businesses. They exist to make money. While some owners and managers are happy to allow their properties to be used as live music venues, over time, as property values increase, especially in the inner city, it becomes less and less profitable to maintain them as such. In addition, as the inner city (again) becomes home to many more residents, so do other legal and social pressures begin to build (as a result of competing uses for finite resources).

    In other cities, one solution to this is for individuals to pool their resources and to collectively purchase properties with the explicit intent of maintaining them as live venue spaces. In still others, people create social centres in squatted buildings. Both require collaboration between large groups of people, which are generally based on pre-existing social movements.

    In Melbourne, and in Australia generally, such movements are either non-existent or very marginal. The yuppification of punk has made a special contribution to this process, and continues to do so: as in the case of The Birmy.

    A5)

    Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:01 pm

    maddyhatesyou: “Doug is not a nazi”; yeah, I wrote that above. Joel, however, the drummer for BS, does appear to have held those views — that is, if playing, recording and touring with a number of neo-Nazi bands over a period of years is any indication. What he believes now… I don’t know. All I know is that now he drums for BS, and BS, alongside of Marching Orders, is one of the bands that continues to actively support The Birmy (as does Doug).

    I dunno what you mean by “people like me”, but yeah, I would prefer it if every time groups like B&H and the Hammerskins tried to organise publicly, they ran into trouble. I also don’t agree that making things go ‘underground’, in and of itself, makes them ‘cool’. Pedophilia is ‘underground’, but it’s not ‘cool’; neither is Nazism.

    “Let the nazis have their party” is your approach, but others think differently, and wanna spoil their funs. As the President of Melbourne Knights said: these people are scum, and should be treated as such. After all, they preach genocide, and on the night of the gig in 2006, assaulted a lone (black) woman. Further, it’s a common practice of these mobs to do this kinda jobbie whenever they gather together in packs, pissed; which is exactly what events like this facilitate… and Fitzroy ain’t the place for it.

    As for Gary, he’s first and foremost a businessman. He wants to make money. So yeah, he’s happy for most anyone to help him do so. The problem is that he includes neo-Nazis on this list, and has for years.

    B&H and the Hammerskins are violent international networks. B&H is banned in Germany and Spain. Members of both groups are responsible for murders and assaults. They’re not nice people. Bands such as Blood Red Eagle and Fortress provide a soundtrack to this fascist violence. Deaths Head, for example — one of the bands Joel was a member of — has a song called ‘More Dead Niggers’, and its vocalist, Jesse, is a Hammerskin, who helps organise these events.

    The point of the boycott is to not support pubs that support groups like these. You can choose to join it or not. It’s a question of which side of the fence you’re on.

    A6)

    Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:49 pm

    maddyhatesyou: I’m not sure I understand or agree with your point about Europe, the extreme right and the law. I’m also not arguing in favour of legislating against neo-Nazism. Instead, I’m merely pointing to the fact that elsewhere B&H is recognised, even by governments, as being violent and dangerous.

    I’m sorry to hear about your friend being beaten up.

    More generally, skinhead is as skinhead does. Some support the boycott, some don’t.

    I’m not sure about the name-calling thing. Do you mean calling people who break the boycott scabs? “Do you plan to go down to the pub and start yelling at the old men who drink there and calling them nazis… go on I DARE YOU!” Um… no.

    Regarding Joel: I don’t agree that it’s childish and retarded not to automatically believe everything Doug says, either about him or anyone else. In my experience, Doug has been very economical with the truth. Do you believe him when he writes that I work at a t-shirt shop in Sydney Road?!?

    Regarding the dickhead in Sydney: do you mean the bloke what runs Scythian Services, or someone else? Either way, I’m not sure how it’s relevant. I haven’t made any reference to him. I’m also not demanding anyone shut up. What I’m drawing attention to, among other things, is the fact that a boycott of The Birmy has been called, and the reasons for it.

    Finally, I know that “nazis” don’t respond to boycotts, and that’s why it’s not aimed at them. It’s aimed at The Birmy — in particular the bands who perform there and the people who go to see them. It’s aimed at The Birmy because for the past 10 years it’s served as a venue for B&H, the Hammerskins and boneheads generally. Further, as a result of Gary’s intransigence on the issue. When it was first raised with him five years ago, following a party to celebrate Adolf Hitler’s birthday, his response was ‘fuck off’. When it was raised again last year following the ISD gig, he lied and said the gig never happened. “It was a punk, skinhead gig that was the same as any night of the week,” he said.

    Quote:
    ‘Victim of white supremacist abuse returns to join protest chorus’
    Marika Dobbin
    The Melbourne Times
    October 18, 2006

    A LOCAL woman who was intimidated and racially abused by a group of men last month will attend a protest against neo-Nazism outside a Fitzroy pub.

    A coalition of local groups is organising the “peace movement” in response to a neo-Nazi concert at the Birmingham Hotel on Saturday, September 23, held to commemorate the death of British white supremacist Ian Stuart.

    Blondien (not her real name) says she was walking alone to her car on Johnston Street the same night when she was surrounded by about seven men. She says the men screamed abuse at her, calling her a black c..t and forcing her to repeat the insults.

    “It’s disgusting that people would single out one person and you have to say stuff about your race to get out of it,” Blondien said.

    Music is planned for the protest on Saturday, October 28, at 1pm outside the Birmingham.

    Hotel co-owner Gary (who wouldn’t give his surname) said: “I’m not getting involved in someone else’s bullshit.”

    Top bloke Gary.

    A7)

    Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:20 pm

    theDedication: That story is between 23 and 16 years old, but there’s a thread that runs from then until now. NA, for example, went on to establish a HQ in Melbourne in Fawkner, from January 1997 to April 1998. During this period, the Sarah Sands (now an Irish theme pub) was a neo-Nazi watering hole.

    http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=623

    One member of NA was Dane Sweetman. He was released from jail in October 2005 — after serving 15 years of a 20-year sentence for the 1990 murder of David Noble at a party to celebrate Adolf Hitler’s birthday — and between then and January 2006 could be found drinking at The Tote (among other local pubs, including The Birmy), often in the company of another bonehead, also with a violent criminal record, called Patrick O’Sullivan. (Incidentally, he’s one of the people responsible for all those ‘World Church of the Creator’ stickers you see around town.) That ended in January after he allegedly assaulted one of the patrons at The Tote, and subsequently had his parole conditions altered to ban him from consuming alcohol.

    Very Happy adam: Your concern over what lies in my hands has been duly noted.

    Inre Doug: I don’t dispute that he may well be a very intelligent person, and generally respectful of others when in their company. On the other hand, above he has chosen to publish what he genuinely believed to be my work address; this on a thread concerning, in part, local attempts to combat groups like B&H and the Hammerskins (a campaign to boycott The Birmy).

    The point being: I’ve received a number of death threats as a result of my involvement in the campaign to boycott The Birmy, as well as a result of my involvement in FightDemBack!, and was the information correct, it would make things that little bit more difficult for myself — which I can only assume was Doug’s intention. (If Doug would like to explain the source of his information, that would be super.)

    My “agenda” does not require Doug to champion anything, and he’s made it abundantly clear, in both word and deed, his support for The Birmy. The reason I’m here is because my blog was linked to this thread. (cole wrote: “also isn’t there some kind of neo-nazi link to the birmy or something? i remember reading it in the age [ie, the melbourne times] or equivalent”; then bulldozed published a link after Doug initially noted its existence online.) And now I’m using the opportunity to put the record straight, however much Doug resents it, and whatever nonsense others publish in response.

    My concern over the presence of neo-Nazi organisations is both ‘personal’ and ‘political’. Doug’s band contains a person who once played, recorded and toured with neo-Nazis. Am I supposed to ignore this fact, or take it into account when examining the potential reasons for his band’s support for The Birmy? What about the fact that BS once shared a stage with Bail Up!? That Doug has previously hung s h i t on SHARPs? Expressed contempt for anti-racist skins? I could go on, but I won’t.

    I’ve never called Doug a “nazi”, and as far as I’m aware he isn’t one. Nor am I aware of his having endorsed racism (other than in jest). That’s good.

    So, exactly what crime have I committed that Doug feels free to name my supposed workplace?

    I’m glad I care more than you do. Resistance is always ultimately less painful than submission. Go ahead and enjoy your life — I’m not stopping you. I’m glad to hear that you don’t support neo-Nazism, and I don’t care that you don’t support anarchism. I disagree that what you call “extremes” inevitably lead to violence (we have a nice democratic government involved in an illegal war in Iraq, btw), but whatever.

    Finally, whether or not any “retard can see that neo-nazi sentiments are stupid” seems to me beside the point. (Are you calling Joel a retard?!?) The fact is that some people — whether intelligent or stupid — find it attractive; some of these people form groups; some of these groups organise gigs in inner-city pubs; some others call for a boycott of these pubs on that basis.

    It’s not rocket science.

    B&H and the Hammerskins are violent international neo-Nazi networks. Members of these groups, over a period of twenty years or so, have viciously assaulted, bashed, stabbed and shot numerous people: gays, lesbians (and people suspected of being queer), Asians, blacks, people with disabilities, the homeless, Jews, anarchists, leftists, punks and skinheads.

    The only thing I ask is that people seriously consider not supporting a pub that supports them.

    It’s not hard.

    Rolling Eyes

    D3)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:09 am

    hey andy what is with the fascination with doug?

    he’s repeatedly denied many of your accusations (as well as [successfully] proved them otherwise) yet you still will not let it rest?

    your call of “well i don’t believe him” is just not good en[o]ugh. Sorry.

    it seems to go far, far beyond “boycotting the birmy” and almost as if you are using that as your chance to e-wail on him..

    i note when one of the oppressed minorities you are here to save (cos god forbid they can’t do that themselves – they need middle class white kids to do their fighting for them) said explicitly that your “help” is neither wanted, needed nor useful, you overlooked it completely.

    so now i directly ask you – how do you justify your stance when a member of a racial minority/ethic group you claim to defend has told you that you yourself, your views and stance are not wanted, not needed and very, very counterproductive?

    how do you answer to this?

    A8)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:19 am

    hola dion,

    here’s my answer:

    1) doug raised the subject of the birmy — beyond that, i’ve already explained.

    2) i dunno what accusations doug has successfully “denied”. he’s “denied” being a “nazi” — i’ve stated i’ve never called him one!

    that said…

    what doug writes now about bail up! is not what he recorded in his tour diary. inre to which, is doug saying he doesn’t know or maintain friendly relations with anyone in the band? the lead singer, damien, once thanked joel for his help in the studio. it’s also been reported — and i don’t know if this is correct or not — that another of doug’s bands, marching orders, featured a bloke called mick on guitar; another member of bail up!. (it’s been further reported that one of the members of the band, a hammerskin, is actually partners with one of doug’s good mates… and so on and so forth.)

    the point is: i wanna know where bs stand. or to put it another way: why “go the birmy”? my understanding is that bs have been hostile to anti-racist activism from the start, especially SHARP. that’s their prerogative, of course, but if a ‘skinhead’ band chooses to, i think it’s fair enough if they come under scrutiny. either that, or you think that they’re somehow beyond criticism, something which i don’t accept in any case.

    (speaking of “real” doug: as you point out, you’re from canberra; i’m from melbourne, and lived here all my life. think about it…)

    inre publishing doug’s photo: i published a photo of doug with another geezer in a skrewdriver t-shirt; partly because of its resemblance to another photo (which also featured two blokes, one with his arm around the other’s shoulder, the other giving the thumbs up), and partly because i was discussing, in general, the r/ship b/w working class politics, racial politics, and skinhead culture, in which skrewdriver played a major role…

    http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=594

    finally, i’m not interested in ‘saving oppressed minorities’ (unless it’s swedish bikini models or something similar). i overlooked lo-rez’s comment ‘cos it’s a daft thing to say, and one not worth responding to. who is ‘lo-rez’? i’ve no idea. as best as i can gather, he’s one of doug’s mates, and as a mate, he’s defending him.

    so what?

    oh yeah, i still wait for doug to explain why he thinks it’s acceptable to publish what he believes to be my work address…

    Quote:
    “SHARP [Skin Heads Against Racial Prejudice], and more importantly the SHARP attitude, has had a massive influence on Skinhead culture. Remember how it used to be back in the eighties when the Boneheads nearly strangled the cult. Remember how kids thought to be a Skinhead you had to be a Nazi. If it wasn’t for SHARP and other groups like AFA, ARA, RASH and all the rest we would be swimming in a sea of swastikas by now. Don’t listen to all the s h i t about splits and politics, the Boneheads go on about it because they know how we drove them underground and reclaimed Skinhead culture for true Skinheads. The non-politicals go on about it because it’s easier than taking on the scum. I’ve been a Skinhead since 1969 and I know what it’s meant since day one.” — Roddy Moreno, The Oppressed

    D4)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:33 pm

    glib comebacks aside @ndy, you don’t really seem one for free speech unless it’s the same rhetoric you are pushing…

    A9)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:41 pm

    What makes you say that dion? And yes whatnext?, Doug is proud strong and honourable, all qualities I find deeply attractive in a man. Hell, given that we already share the same surname, why don’t we just get married? Joel can be best man, and Pat2 can do the honours.*

    Wink

    *Make that Mark Bastard. He strikes me as being more of a religious type.

    D5)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:47 pm

    well, as in even if you find something someone wants to say something horrible and [repellent], do you still grant them the freedom to say it?

    such as white power bands gigging?

    A10)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:55 pm

    dion wrote:
    well, as in even if you find something someone wants to say… horrible and repellent, do you still grant them the freedom to say it?

    such as white power bands gigging?

    In reality, it’s not in my power to ‘grant’ anyone much of anything. More generally, I think individuals should not be penalised by the state for writing stupid hateful things… like, calling for ‘more dead niggers’ or ‘kill the Jews’ or ‘Carlton for premiers’ or whatever.

    The way I see it, white power gigs aren’t just acts of speech, but organised, public performances. In principle, I don’t support the ‘right’ of fascists to organise in this fashion. On the other hand, it depends on a range of other factors whether or not I think such events should be directly sabotaged.

    Does that answer your question? What do you think?

    D6)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:02 pm

    @ndy wrote:
    dion wrote:
    well, as in even if you find something someone wants to say… horrible and repellent, do you still grant them the freedom to say it?

    such as white power bands gigging?

    In reality, it’s not in my power to ‘grant’ anyone much of anything. More generally, I think individuals should not be penalised by the state for writing stupid hateful things… like, calling for ‘more dead niggers’ or ‘kill the Jews’ or ‘Carlton for premiers’ or whatever.

    The way I see it, white power gigs aren’t just acts of speech, but organised, public performances. In principle, I don’t support the ‘right’ of fascists to organise in this fashion. On the other hand, it depends on a range of other factors whether or not I think such events should be directly sabotaged.

    Does that answer your question? What do you think?

    of course they should be allowed to assemble.

    just like left aligned groups should be allowed to do the same.

    and then i can walk past both groups and laugh at the pitiful jobbie you both peddle…

    A11)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:15 pm

    dion wrote:
    and then i can walk past both groups and laugh at the pitiful jobbie you both peddle…

    Sorry dion, I didn’t realise you were in uniform.

    Carry on.

    D7)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:18 pm

    @ndy wrote:
    dion wrote:
    and then i can walk past both groups and laugh at the pitiful jobbie you both peddle…

    Sorry dion, I didn’t realise you were in uniform.

    Carry on.

    i leave uniforms to the punx…

    D8)

    Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:30 am

    Medina wrote:

    From that follows this: those who are arguing vigorously for “freedom of speech” (even for neo-Nazis and other white supremacists), seem to be just as vigorous, in some cases even more so, in telling me (and @ndy) [to shut up]

    nope, i was pro free speech for all of you…even those buffoons.

    then i can exercise my freedom to ignore y’all – both left and right.

    however andy did admit that he WASN’T for allowing “gatherings” of these groups…

    soooooooooooo…the only person on here currently calling for the silencing of a group and wishing to disrupt their lawful right of assembly is………ANDY!

    fa[s]cistsaywhat?

  9. @ndy says:

    “jesus andy, way to cut and paste bits and pieces as you see fit…”

    Yes dion, it’s what writers do: quote the relevant passages. Thus:

    You dispute my characterisation of the nature of the discussion on Bombshell, in which respect I wrote:

    “At this stage, none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above, and have in fact acted as a kind of demented cheer squad for Doug and The Birmy Hotel.”

    My intention in quoting the passages you find above was to illustrate my point; it’s a barrage of nonsense.

    Secondly, as I’ve already stated, when I wrote that “none of the handful of other Bombshell zine regulars who’ve commented on the thread in question have objected to any of the above”, by the above I meant specifically:

    1) Doug’s publishing my alleged work address and;
    2) Mark’s racist abuse and threats of violence.

    In the comment above, I’ve reproduced, in full, all of your comments from the first six — not four — pages on the thread. At not point do you object to:

    1) Doug’s publishing my alleged work address and;
    2) Mark’s racist abuse and threats of violence.

    Neither did Adam, $mut or Bosma. In fact, not only have neither you, nor these three people, nor anybody else on Bombshell, objected to this, they have in fact supported Doug’s publication of my alleged work address.

    “again you have lied and taken bits and pieces as you see fit to [h]elp your “cause””

    I haven’t told any lies.

    Again, if you believe I’ve told a lie:

    1) Specify exactly what this lie consists of;
    2) Provide evidence for your contention.

    Or to put it another way:

    Dion, if you wish to dispute my characterisations, feel free. But providing evidence would help. So don’t simply assert “bullshit”, demonstrate it. Provide examples, for example, of where posters on Bombshell have not acted as a demented cheer squad for Doug. Quote Adam, $mut, Bosma and yourself to this effect.

    “way to not post anything where people like adam, expressed support for your boycott but not your ideals and way of presenting them.”

    Yes dion, I post what I want to post. Not what you do. That’s your job. If you want to post what Adam wrote, or what anyone else wrote, go ahead. In any case, as I’ve said again and again and now again, I made two claims regarding the discussion: one, at no point did anyone object to Doug publishing my alleged work address or the racist abuse I received and two; the discussion as a whole was demented, and aimed at exonerating Doug.

    “i’m not even going to bother with this any more.”

    That’s obviously your prerogative.

    “coming from a Jewish family of Holocaust [survivors], i assert you do more harm than good and [alienate] many from a good idea with go nowhere rhetoric and elitist ramblings…

    good bye…”

    That you come from a Jewish family of Holocaust survivors is irrelevant to the discussion, and gives your assertions no more credence than if they were made by someone who was not. Rationality is not a product of familial descent, and descendants of survivors have all kinds of political disagreements with one another, including on the subject of how best to avoid or to prevent the re-emergence of fascist currents.

    Finally, my rhetoric is directed at a very specific end: the closure of The Birmy, and my writings are very precise, both in their meaning and in their intent.

    If only the same could be said for yours.

  10. @ndy says:

    For the record, adam’s posts from the first SIX (that’s SIX, not FOUR) pages of the thread (with one or two exceptions in the case of short, irrelevant posts). dion writes: “way to not post anything where people like adam expressed support for your boycott but not your ideals and way of presenting them”; in reality, adam wrote a few words in support of some vague concept of ‘anti-racism’ and expressed opposition to/token support for the boycott.

    1)

    Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:00 pm

    I think that you have way too much [time] on your hands, @ndy. I respect and understand your ideology of ‘anti-racism’, and I think that I agree with you for the most part that [racism] is a disease that needs to be stopped.

    But I think that you are taking this too far with Doug. I’ve met him (as have many others on this board, of all persuasions and races and colours and creeds) and he is a respectful, intelligent man.

    Your agenda requires that he personally champion a political cause that you endorse. Well guess what, sunshine – fuck you. You can get fucked. If some completely deranged internet stalker who wanted to know everything about me came after me, and demanded that I justify my taste in music, politics and lifestyle then I’d probably react in the same fashion.

    I think it’s racist that the poor black chick that got attacked was referred to as ‘Blondien’. Surely that’s just salt in the wound?

    How about you fight your own fight, let these people do what they do (which is obviously not racist, as they’ve pointed out in clear, numbered points that are easy enough for even I to follow) and get on with your life.

    I am glad I don’t care as much as you. It sounds like it would be painful, and take too much time and energy. I just wanna try and enjoy my life. I don’t support neo-nazism, and I don’t support anarchism. I guess any extreme that leads to militancy is the wrong choice, in my view. Any retard can see that neo-nazi sentiments are stupid, and a million people get bashed every day for a million reasons. As someone else said, let these fuckwits speak and they’ll ruin their own cause.

    Why don’t you set up a boycott of doctors and police, they cause more harm than any political organisation.

    People that sit on the fence get the best view.

    2)

    Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:49 pm

    don’t roll your eyes at me, you crazy political person. You actually do have too much time on your hands, you just proved it.

    I’m sure you’re a really nice person, I respect what you want to change in the world, and I think the members of Bulldog Spirit have been vindicated. If you have [received] death threats, it is because you are fucking with neo-nazis who probably want to break all of your bones. It is not because of musicians who just want to rock out at a venue that will give them a show.

    3)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:40 pm

    He explained that pages ago dude, you are unable to read/listen/whatever happens in cyberspace.

    Seems like you are free to slander whoever the fuck you want, spread rumours about people, describe and expouse individual political beliefs and plaster them all over the ‘net, and make sure that everyone knows where to go to fight these ‘fascist/neo-nazi scum’, and yet it’s not acceptable that you are visible yourself.

    I know who I am, and I happily reject all stupid ideologies/stereotypes/musical lifestyles. I think punk rock is just as stupid as skinhead lifestyle, as is disco and techno and massive flares and living like you are into the only music that ever mattered.

    People are fucking idiots, really. Fuck anyone who needs to dress the same every day for 20 years. It’s a much bigger world than your little scene.

    I think that you have made enough obvious threats and announced enough markers for the general public that you should be public yourself. You can’t just point out where people are, who they are, and what they do without standing up and showing yourself. I assume you are scared, which is fair enough – I don’t have the balls to do what you’re doing (i.e. fucking with a minority who don’t have any power anyway, who would love to beat the [shit] out of you) but I also have nothing to do with anyone involved in that scene.

    Do you know, I have met thousands and thousands of people in my life, and never once have I had to deal with the skinhead/white power problem. I guess it’s because it DOESN’T AFFECT 99% OF THE POPULATION.

    your little clique is irrelevant for most of Australia. Maybe you’re just trying to feel like what you have to say is important.

    4)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:15 pm

    You have taken sections of my post, out of context, and twisted them for your own purposes. You are as bad as the media.

    I would like to support your anti-racist stance, but you and atndy are making it really hard to feel supportive.

    Surprisingly enough, I’m not the enemy. You are not gaining any friends this way. Your aggressive stance is alienating any possible allies you may have found.

    How about you just go back to your little clique, and fight the good fight with the 20 or so people who agree with you, and we’ll continue this conversation later – when it still makes no difference to anyone except the few people you know.

    You are as bad as the people you are fighting against. Elitist punk rock/ left-wing chicanery makes for exclusive audiences that reject others. You can all get fucked as far as I am concerned.

    5)

    Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:52 am

    “Sheesh. I’m beginning to get the feeling that Bombshell is some kinda support group for teenage conformists — who like a little bit of rock ‘n’ roll. Or something.

    Does think make brain hurt, “dude”? If so, good. Your mental faculties sorely need exercise.

    From what I can gather, you resent my ability to express myself in terms that make you feel all icky inside. I don’t think you understand who you are, really, but whether you do or not, you certainly understand next-to-nothing either about me, or what I’ve written. You’re like someone pounding mud in the expectation that by doing so you’ll create a sculpture. I haven’t made any threats, obvious or not. Instead, it’s quite obvious that you’re threatened by serious debate.

    You’re righteously stupid in your pronouncements: “I know”, “I happily reject”, “I think”, “people are”, “I think”, “you can’t”, “I assume”, “I don’t”, “I have”… Consider — for a moment — that other people have different experiences to yours, and as a result, accord different things different priorities in their lives. In summary, whatever you “know”, “happily reject”, “think”, assume about others, command, assume, do or don’t think, have or don’t have, you’re not the centre of the universe.

    Grow up.”

    Wow. I thought, on reading back through my posts, that I’d made a great deal of sense. And then I got to this.

    Note the sections in bold. I am guilty of all of these actions, as they predicate what is usually called ‘living’. If you are unable to accept that these actions, mental or physical, are acceptable parameters for the above ‘living’, I would suggest that, in fact, you have no life.

    Maybe you should get a life, and know that this may involve making judgements on what you (sic) “”know”, “happily reject”, “think”, assume about others, command, assume, do or don’t think, have or don’t have”.

    I resent your ability to present boring, mindless drivel that isn’t worth reading, you freak. No-one cares. I am anti-racist in my actions, and way of life. I am not worried about a couple of nazi skinheads, because I don’t think that boycotting a pub that hires a room out to anyone who wants it will make any difference. However, for the sake of posterity, I will not drink at the Birmy because it is obviously a haven for white power thugs. There, are you happy? Surprisingly enough, I have never been there and probably never would have gone there. I live in Sydney.

    I don’t care about your stupid subculture. Who gives a fuck what ‘real’ skinheads think. You’re as ridiculous as the disco fuckwits that wore 10-inch platform shoes. It’s conforming to a stereotype, and I think if anyone needs to ‘grow up’, it’s the one still playing dress-ups at age 40 .

    Why did you get attracted to skinhead culture? Why are you unable to create your own culture, and experience yourself unbound by ritualistic ceremony? Why can[‘]t you just enjoy what you enjoy without a checklist? I like country music, and reggae, and jazz, and folk, and aggressive punk rock, and good trance and psy-trance, and a whole spectrum of things. I’m not restrained by a ‘culture’, and you are trapped in a small box and intentionally marginalising yourselves.

    I would like to think that I am a fairly intelligent, informed person. It hurts when you talk down to me in that condescending way. We could have been friends, atndy – I know lots of people in the direct action, crusty anarchist way of life circles. I would usually be happy to support something like your boycott, but you have gone about it in such a deranged, hyper-lucid escalatory way that I find it difficult to champion your cause.

    In short, I am disappointed, atndy. We could have had something real, here… something that… made a change.

    Crying or Very sad

    6)

    Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:19 am

    you are a nazi justnotsteve because you have obviously had a drink at some pub where some dude played once.

    Maybe you should just boycott bands and pubs?

  11. @ndy says:

    For the record, almost all of $mut’s posts, from the first SIX — that is, not just four — pages. Note that, like adam and dion, $mut does not address Doug’s posting my address or Mark’s abuse.

    1)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:00 pm

    mein gott im himmel!

    I’m part german, part boong, and part gypsy, i’m same sex attracted, and i date a skin.
    he’s not racially motivated in his politics.
    and neither is Doug.
    Doug’s a good dude, who actually has some idea of the different factions of skin culture, and treats all people with respect, regardless of their background, or political agenda, unlike a certain someone else i could mention.

    not even I’m that Liberal.

    fucking anarchists.

    2)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:10 pm

    @ndy wrote:
    “Oookkkaaayyy…

    I know Doug is very equitable. He’s got a (former) neo-Nazi on drums!

    Rolling Eyes

    Silly fence-sitters…”

    how am i a fence sitter?
    or are you referring to my mixed heritage?
    now who’s the bigot?

    3)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:14 pm

    in all seriousness though.
    how can you comfortably slander someone because of an association with a third party, who PREVIOUSLY had affiliations with a political faction you don’t agree with?
    isn’t the whole point of speaking out against bigotry to reform , and educate in the aim of prevention?

    @ndy:

    To begin with, I disagree that that is actually what I’m doing.

    What, precisely, does this “slander” consist of? I’ve never called Doug a “nazi”, and have refuted that assertion twice (I think) on this thread. Please feel free to point out where I have — here, or anywhere else. If I had to characterise his views, I’d say that they were classically reactionary and right-wing.

    Beyond that, the subject of what I’m trying to address — but which you and others constantly stray from — is The Birmy, and the campaign to boycott it on the basis of its playing host to neo-Nazi gigs, meetings and clientele. I’m not going to elaborate on the rationale behind this campaign again unless you specifically request me to — I’ve done it numerous times elsewhere and you can read about it on my blog.

    With regards Doug and BS, they’ve been vocal supporters of The Birmy. His bands (BS and MO) have played a number of gigs there, and piss on the boycott. From my perspective, this is doubly disappointing, because the groups which motivated the boycott in the first place — B&H and the Hammerskins — are boneheads.

    To put it in a succinct fashion:

    “To be a Skinhead, you must love your Doc Martens. You must love s k a music. You must have the right attitude, the right attitude from the heart and the brain. You must like football. You must like to dance harder than anybody else, of any subculture. And most of all, you need to be anti-racist.” ~ Buster Bloodvessel

    “Keep on keeping on against the Bonehead scum that stand for nothing but cowardice.
    When you think of the Australian blood given in the fight against Fascism in WW2 it must have old soldiers turning in their graves at the site of Neo Nazi scum playing gigs in your town.
    Always stand firm against this threat.
    FUCK FASCISM.
    Roddy.”

    In brief, in questioning Doug’s active opposition to the boycott, I’m not slandering him, and I’m not questioning him solely on the basis of his association with Joel (the bloke who’s apparently going to kill me). Speaking of which, as I’ve said a number of times now, I’ve no idea what Joel’s politics are — all I know is that for many years he played, recorded and toured with neo-Nazi bands: Bail Up!, Deaths Head, Fortress and Ravenous, and possibly others. When he started doing this, I don’t know; I don’t know when he stopped either.

    More generally, Doug, Joel, BS and MO operate within a wider milieu, one comprising many hundreds of people in the local music industry. Over time, people naturally form associations, often close ones, and ones in which ‘politics’, if it ever played any kind of a role, becomes subordinate to other considerations. Hence the knee-jerk responses to be found here and elsewhere. Basically, I’m a spoilsport.

    I think that this specific fact is accompanied by a more general cultural degeneration in ‘punk’, one which essentially amounts to a kind of yuppification. People don’t “care”, politics isn’t “fun”, yadda yadda yadda. This has reached the point where peaceful, legal responses to the presence of neo-Nazi scum in ostensibly “punk” venues is accompanied by all kinds of wailing, gnashing of teeth, threats of violence etcetera etcetera etcetera.

    …that’s the short version.

    $mut wrote:
    isn’t the whole point of speaking out against bigotry to reform, and educate in the aim of prevention?

    No, not necessarily. In fact, I view that as a mistake, one based on the erroneous assumption that opposition to “bigotry” can only proceed from a ‘liberal’ political perspective. Hence the ridiculous (but still comical) assertion about my being or trying to be some kinda champion for the poor widdle blackfellas or affirmative action or some other jobbie…

    Fuck that.

    If Joel no longer wants to massacre kikes or butcher blacks or hang gays — great. Why? I’ve no idea. Maybe he grew up. Maybe being a neo-Nazi activist, preaching genocide and raising funds for foreign neo-Nazi organisations, was simply no longer fun. Who the fuck knows? The point of a boycott and, moreover, creating and participating in political forms of opposition to neo-Nazi groups like B&H or the Hammerskins (or the WPCA or the PYL or Australia First of the NZNF or the KKK or blah blah blah) is first and foremost not to ‘educate’ them that maybe they’re wrong… it’s to stop them.

    That, in itself, can be ‘educational’.

    The fact the scum had to shift their operations to MCSC is ‘educational’. So, too, the fact that this was also exposed, not in The Melbourne Times as in 2006, but in the national newspapers and SBS-TV.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n5WARjt677M

    “Fascism is not to be debated. It is to be smashed.”

    4)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:42 pm

    if you aren’t standing in defence of non whites, then why do you have such a major issue with anyone supporting the Birmy?
    it’s a business, not a government.

    “The point of a boycott and, moreover, creating and participating in political forms of opposition to neo-Nazi groups like B&H or the Hammerskins (or the WPCA or the PYL or Australia First of the NZNF or the KKK or blah blah blah) is first and foremost not to ‘educate’ them that maybe they’re wrong… it’s to stop them. ”

    how?

    @ndy

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:47 pm

    $mut wrote:
    if you aren’t standing in defence of non whites, then why do you have such a major issue with anyone supporting the Birmy? it’s a business, not a government.

    Jesus fuck a s h i t soufflé…

    http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=760

    5)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:54 pm

    @ndy wrote:
    $mut wrote:
    if you aren’t standing in defence of non whites, then why do you have such a major issue with anyone supporting the Birmy? it’s a business, not a government.

    Jesus fuck a s h i t soufflé…

    http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=760

    yes, i CAN read.
    that doesn’t answer my question.
    at all.

    and you didn’t answer my second question.

    @ndy

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:24 pm

    $mut wrote:
    still awaiting answers.

    Aren’t we all?

    “oh yeah, i still wait for doug to explain why he thinks it’s acceptable to publish what he believes to be my work address…”

    @ndy

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:27 pm

    “if you aren’t standing in defence of non whites, then why do you have such a major issue with anyone supporting the Birmy? it’s a business, not a government.”

    I honestly don’t understand this question $mut.

    Business? Government? Huh?

    Yeah… The Birmy’s a business… not a government… and therefore…?

    6)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:32 pm

    the really sad thing is, I’m probably one of few that posts here that would have calmly listened to your arguments without making it a slanging match, attempted to take you seriously and considered what you had to say. but it seems like your views are very much a regurgitation of others, without much to back them, and you’re dodging questions because of a lack of independant thought.

    this is juvenile. I’m going to bed.

    @ndy

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:18 pm

    $mut:

    I think the really sad thing is little orphaned kittens tilting their heads, looking up, and plaintively crying “miaow?”… but then that’s probably just me.

    I’m ah, heartened to hear of your capacity for thoughtful discussion. Unfortunately, this hasn’t been demonstrated in your posts so far. The last question was a genuine one — I honestly don’t understand what you’re talking about. And I’m not simply regurgitating others’ views. The point of quoting Buster and Roddy is because they represent another strand of skinhead culture, one that’s not prepared to tolerate fascist infiltration. They also speak from (bitter) experience.

    As for the previous question “how?” (to stop groups such as B&H), here’s how I see it:

    Since 1994, B&H, and then the Hammerskins, have held an ISD memorial gig in Melbourne. Over the last ten years or so, The Birmy has been one of the regular venues for this event. In addition, these mobs have organised other gigs there, held meetings, and generally hung out at the pub.

    In 2002, following a gig to celebrate Adolf Hitler’s birthday, Gary was approached and asked not to allow further gigs of this sort to go ahead. He said fuck off, and, naturally enough, others gigs were held there subsequently.

    Last year, it was discovered that The Birmy was again the site of the ISD gig. When asked, both on the night and subsequently, about the gig, Gary lied and said it never happened. He also expressed indifference to the assault on a local. As for B&H:

    Quote:
    For those unaware[,] The Birmingham is in a very “multi-cultural” (aka shitty) part of Melbourne. The reds seem to have taken affront to our presence and having not so cunningly deduced the whereabouts of the event, proceeded to post the location and contact details of the gig on various red websites. Some bottom touching wag then proceeded to call the pub manager and claiming to be a spokesman for the CFMEU[,] stated the pub would be closed down by violence due to the assault of a union member by [boneheads] the previous evening. Full points for originality and credit where credit is due, this story was better than the usual bomb threats[,] and did cause some nervousness on behalf of the pub management. Of course it was all bullshit that came to nothing[,] and prank calls and hang ups were the order of the night throughout the evening. Of the reds themselves however there was never any sign…

    In a footnote however, many left wing punks[,] feeling betrayed by The Birmingham (traditionally a punk hangout)[,] called for a boycott of the pub from [sic] their annual pub crawl the following week due to their “support” for the Nazis. The pub crawl ended at The Birmy as per usual, red punks in tow, probably grumbling drunkenly into their beer about Nazi sympathi[s]ers.

    I like Fitzroy, and I’ve lived there (about a 5 minute walk from The Birmy as it happens). It is, indeed, a ‘multicultural’ area. As far as I’m concerned, Nazi scum aren’t welcome. But according to Gary, they are.

    Fuck that.

    The point of isolating the pub is because in this way it’s financially penalised for providing a platform for the scum. Further, it provides an example to all other proprietors: give your premises over to scum, you’ll lose money.

    B&H and the Hammerskins try to avoid this predicament by being vewy vewy sneaky. Nevertheless, the venue for this year’s gig was also sprung, and believe me, the Melbourne Knights weren’t happy with the publicity — and why should they be?

    Beyond this, such activity is a start, not an end. It means that such groups have to devote more of their energy to sneaking about. This is good because it not only makes it difficult for them to organise events and maintain any kind of momentum, but also because it makes it harder for them to recruit. The reason I mentioned the other groups above is because they too have been subjected to close monitoring, and believe me, they don’t like it.

    It’s a myth to believe that if you ignore these groups they’ll go away. It’s also a myth that they do no harm. Just because you don’t read about it in the paper doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, but the reason such things aren’t reported is complicated…

    For example:

    Quote:
    New Zealand gov’t, Jewish leaders denounce graves desecration
    Associated Press
    November 2, 2007

    WELLINGTON – A government official and a Jewish leader spoke out Friday to denounce the third anti-Semitic attack on Jewish graves in New Zealand’s capital in three years.

    Nazi swastikas and slogans including Hitler R.I.P. and Juden Swine were daubed on Jewish graves three weeks ago, but the desecration only now has become public, Wellington Regional Jewish Council head David Zwartz said.

    The latest vandalism follows two attacks on Jewish graves in 2004, when headstones were smashed and daubed with anti-Jewish graffiti and a Jewish prayer house was torched.

    The 2004 attacks were described as the worst anti-Jewish acts in New Zealand’s history. Nobody has been arrested over those incidents…

    Such activity also brings together individuals to work together on this and related issues, with a view to responding more quickly and effectively to such events. Those who think I operate alone on this are either naive or stupid. For a whole range of different reasons, most choose to remain relatively quiet.

    I hope the above goes some way to answering your questions, but perhaps a better approach would be for you to construct a case against the boycott?

  12. @ndy says:

    bosma:

    1)

    Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:35 pm

    http://birmyboycott.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/

    2)

    Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:30 pm

    maybe you bullied him at school doug?

    3)

    Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:05 pm

    welcome to bombshell @ndy

    4)

    Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007

    cole it[‘]s a piece of [shit] venue anyway i wouldn’t get involved

    Pseudonymous bonehead writes: “i dont think u have the right to fucking breath u piece of [shit]. if you like gooks so much why dont you fuck off to some gook country and see how much they tolerate mouthy cunts such as yourself. then you may see why we dont want the scum to do the same here.”

    5)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:01 pm

    oh dear

    Following another racist outburst by the above bonehead…

    6)

    Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:18 pm

    posting in goon appreciation thread

    PAGE EIGHT:

    7)

    Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:29 pm

    @ndy do you like cats?

    EIGHT)

    Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:45 pm

    @ndy for the record I won’t drink/go to the birmy, and if i was in a band would not play there. Most of my friends bands also won’t play there (sorry they don[‘]t post on bombshell)

    PAGE NINE:

    @ndy

    Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:14 pm

    That’s great Twinkle. Can you please tell me the names of these bands? Thus far the following have indicated their support:

    ABC Weapons : Final Warning : Pisschrist : Schifosi : Speartackle : The Focus : The Resignators : Vae Victis : Vents : Yidcore…

    Plus a range of bands as listed here:

    http://www.myspace.com/boycott_the_birmy

    including Antiskeptic, The Blurters, Sin City and others.

    9)

    Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:18 pm

    But Yidcore would go down so well at a birmi gig Sad

    this war & wolfman jack have both refused to play shows there, can’t actually think who else has right now though… i think you’ll find a lot of bands support it but ar[e]n’t vocal about it

  13. Jim QLD says:

    @ndy I think if anything happened to you the police would need the phone book to look for suspects. May be a good time for you to take a dive and think about just getting on with the job, start attacking the system not the people who are the victims.

  14. @ndy says:

    If anything happened to me Jim, I imagine those responsible would have more than just the police to worry about. Touch one, touch all, as they say in the classics.

  15. Jim QLD says:

    “Touch one, touch all, as they say in the classics.”

    That[‘]s funny. You truly have no idea. I could not be bothered with that type of piss and vinegar. I’m sure others are very scared and concerned.

    I must admit I am very disappointed that you would take this road @ndy. Are you calling everyone’s bluff by chance?

    I have no problem with a debate but don’t use that card with me. Nobody I know think[s] you’re worth a stretch. So just debate and leave the big macho stuff at the door.

  16. ComeInSpinner says:

    In brief, in questioning Doug’s active opposition to the boycott, I’m not slandering him, and I’m not questioning him solely on the basis of his association with Joel (the bloke who’s apparently going to kill me). Speaking of which, as I’ve said a number of times now, I’ve no idea what Joel’s politics are — all I know is that for many years he played, recorded and toured with neo-Nazi bands: Bail Up!, Deaths Head, Fortress and Ravenous, and possibly others. When he started doing this, I don’t know; I don’t know when he stopped either.

    For the record, I’ve never threatened anybody over the internet, and don’t intend to start now. I have no idea who the “Joel” was who made the threat, nor do I care, nor should you for that matter. It’s pointless. Over the years I’ve been threatened a number of times over the net, nothing has ever come of it.

    Also for the record, I never played for Fortress, nor have I traveled to Europe, (though I hope to someday). You are correct with the rest of it, I certainly played with Ravenous, recorded with Bail Up! and Death’s Head. I’ve never denied any of this. I don’t know of Doug ever denying this, or that he has ever been “loose with truth” either, as you suggested.

    You also wrote: “my understanding is that BS have been hostile to anti-racist activism from the start, especially SHARP. that’s their prerogative”

    Based on what? My having played for these bands in the past? Putting that aside I can say honestly the other members of the band (Doug, Ben and Phill) certainly would never want to promote politics through music. They are just three very talented guys who love music and love to play music. Just like I do. Anybody is welcome to come and see BS play, and many do, every time we play.

    Secondly, I don’t know of any SHARP skins in Melbourne at this time, maybe there are some around, I wouldn’t know. There were some a few years back and they were scum. Not for their politics, but for the people they were, and for their actions. I used to know a few of them way back when I played for GGF, and one night at a gig in Geelong I intervened as around 4 of them kicked and beat a 15 year old or so kid. They nearly knocked him out, and very nearly blinded him, if it wasn’t for myself and a few other people. The reason? This “kid” didn’t like ska music, he preferred metal. True story, and from that night I had nothing to do with any of them. I’m sure had you been witness to this, and the other cowardly shit these people used to do, you would have arrived at the same conclusion that I did.

    Joel (the drummer from Bulldog Spirit).

  17. @ndy says:

    Hi Joel,

    Thanks for your comment. I’m glad to hear that the Joel who left a message on my blog is not the Joel who drums for Bulldog Spirit.

    I’ll respond more fully later.

  18. @ndy says:

    For the record, I’ve never threatened anybody over the internet, and don’t intend to start now. I have no idea who the “Joel” was who made the threat, nor do I care, nor should you for that matter. It’s pointless. Over the years I’ve been threatened a number of times over the net, nothing has ever come of it.

    That may be so, and I tend to agree, but for various reasons, I like to know who’s making threats, if possible, and this person obviously wanted me to think that it was you, not them, who was determined to expedite my journey across the Styx.

    Also for the record, I never played for Fortress, nor have I traveled to Europe, (though I hope to someday). You are correct with the rest of it, I certainly played with Ravenous, recorded with Bail Up! and Death’s Head. I’ve never denied any of this. I don’t know of Doug ever denying this, or that he has ever been “loose with truth” either, as you suggested.

    When I initially asked Doug about this, he replied that you’d ‘played in other bands before BS’.

    This wasn’t exactly a shocking revelation.

    More to the point, Doug didn’t name these bands, nor indicate that they were anything other than your average rock ‘n’ roll band.

    July 16, 2007: “Oh @ndy you’re still going. This is getting tedious. No Joel does not “moonlight” in any other bands. He has previously played in other bands but does no longer.”

    Technically correct, but not exactly forthcoming, especially given the context. In other words, I believe Doug was indeed being economical with the truth. Note that his remark was made in response to what I think was a fairly straightforward question:

    [Doug:] “Joel does not ”moonlight” in Bail Up!.”

    [@ndy:] That’s odd. I guess that Damien Ovchynik must be a liar:

    [Damien:] “Bail Up! formed in 2000, I think it was, out of a small scene in Canberra. Sid from Fortress was living up there with us for a bit and was a big part in getting the ball rolling. Myself and Rodney were [basically] the band for a long time, writing all the material and using lads here and there for recordings and gigs. A big cheers to Shannon and Joel from Ravenous!”

    [@ndy:] I take it that you also deny that Joel, the drummer in your band (Bulldog Spirit), played drums for the other neo-Nazi bands Death’s Head and Ravenous? And that in its original line-up Marching Orders included Mick on guitar, who also played in Bail Up!?

    Rod/ney is, as far as I’m aware, still performing with Bail Up!, and is a Hammerskin. According to a fascist informant, he’s very good friends with Fiona, who handles BS merchandising via Deadset — this would certainly help explain why she attended the 2006 ISD gig and, presumably, the 2007 gig…

    Be that as it may, I simply don’t think it’s possible, or credible, for someone to have played with or recorded for one of these bands — Bail Up!, Deaths Head, Ravenous — let alone all three, without endorsing their political perspective. In other words, whatever you happen to believe now, you once joined in the chorus for ‘more dead niggers’, ‘kill a commie for christ’, and all the other batshittery associated with neo-Nazism, B&H and the Hammerskins, and the political ideology and practice of these three bands in particular.

    ‘That was then and this is now’ is not an explanation, nor does it suggest anything other than the inevitable passage of time; certainly, no change or reversal in perspective is thereby indicated. And no “denial” has been necessary because to this point there has been no acknowledgement — certainly none that I’m aware of, and despite having raised the issue many months ago at the beginning of the year.

    You also wrote: “my understanding is that BS have been hostile to anti-racist activism from the start, especially SHARP. that’s their prerogative”

    Based on what? My having played for these bands in the past? Putting that aside I can say honestly the other members of the band (Doug, Ben and Phill) certainly would never want to promote politics through music. They are just three very talented guys who love music and love to play music. Just like I do. Anybody is welcome to come and see BS play, and many do, every time we play.

    I base this on Doug’s account of the band’s Melbourne tour in 2002, as well as the accounts of others (non-SHARPs) of their interactions with the band. More specifically, however, is the band’s refusal to denounce scum like B&H and the Hammerskins. Further, to not only refuse to endorse a boycott of The Birmy, but to undermine it by playing and organising gigs there. Further, Doug in particular (and Ben and Phill) has done so via two bands: BS and Marching Orders (October 7, November 18, 2006, April 25, 2007).

    In addition to Doug, Ben has been fairly entertaining; especially when he does his impression of a roadie for Hard Skin…

    Minus the sense of humour.

    Like Doug, Ben has mistaken me for another Andy: initially claiming that I attended this year’s punk pub crawl; exclaiming that “passifists who don’t run from fights shouldn’t speak so boldly, and give their identity away so freely”; before having the penny finally drop.

    Duh.

    On a more serious note, Ben — while twying tewwibwy hard not to sound like he’s endorsing the views of “people of right wing persuasion” (ie, neo-Nazis) — has also taken the opportunity, writing as a nasty ‘Commie Killer’, to exclaim “Fuck Stalin, fuck you commies and fuck you stupid fucking anarchist pieces of shit. Fucking die already. We would all be better off.”

    Dunno ’bout Phill.

    And yeah, having played for Bail Up!, Death’s Head and Ravenous, would suggest a certain degree of hostility towards Skin Heads Against Racial Prejudice.

    Finally, the SHARPs you encountered in Geelong do sound like scum. But: 1) obviously, being a skinhead against — not for — racial prejudice, doesn’t mandate bashing 15 year old kids who don’t like ska and; 2) this incident doesn’t say anything much about the politics of SHARP. So: I reckon if you asked 100 SHARPs their opinion, 99 would agree with you (“cowardly shit”).

  19. ComeInSpinner says:

    Ok, where to begin? As I said earlier, I do read your blog, and have not threatened you in any manner, nor would I. Why would I threaten someone’s life whom I’m not likely to ever meet? Apart from being pretty stupid to threaten someone’s life in the first place, it certainly doesn’t make any sense.
    I sometimes wonder whether we met in the past, and I say that because I met a guy a couple of times who lived in Easey Street, near the Birmy, it would have been 2000, or 2001, and we got talking about politics, B&H and a number of other issues. He suggested I join a group called “Angry People” because of my dissatisfaction on a number of issues around the world. I don’t remember his name, but he reminded me a little of Robert Smith from The Cure in his appearance. I don’t know what happened to him.
    My point in the previous post when I mentioned the SHARPS (and I didn’t explain this very well) was simply to point out that if there was any opposition to SHARP in Melbourne it was generally to those people as individuals, politics aside. Most punks I know looked upon these guys as arseholes, even though they would have probably agreed with their politics. It’s a very insular view, but you will find a lot of people base their opinions on their own experiences, ie: if the only SHARPS you ever met were these people, your opinion wouldn’t be too high. I think the same goes the other way, I know people with right wing politics who are very decent, law abiding citizens, who (believe it or not) live quite normal lives and have quite normal families, then again, I’ve also known my fair share of people from the right who are nothing but mugs.
    As for my own opinions, you suggested not much has changed but the passage of time. Haven’t your opinions changed a little over the years? Surely they would have at some level and on some issues. I’ve got some opinions you may disagree with, but then you’d be surprised that we do agree on some things.
    I shake my head often at the current direction the world is heading. I think about the perilous state we are in and wonder how long things will go on as they are. I look at events such as 9/11 (even though there’s a lot of doubt in my mind as to who was responsible) and I’m horrified that someone goes to work and gets smacked in the mouth by a 737, but what’s the difference between that event and the tens of thousands of innocents who’ve been blown apart in Iraq and Afghanistan by the “Coalition of the willing”? Similar with events like the Beslan massacre. I watched that and noted the world’s reaction to the perpetrators, though very little ever gets mentioned of the countless children in Chechnya who’ve been butchered by the Russian army. Similar to Waco, Texas. What gives the Government the right to kill a group of people just because they don’t want to be a part of the New World Order? We could go on forever, about the countless conflicts and events throughout the world, it makes for interesting discussion. My point is that whatever your opinions or beliefs are I don’t think it’s ok to butcher innocent people for them. I think if I was being stood up against a wall it would matter very little to me if the bullet was coming from a Communist or Fascist, or a Christian or a Muslim. Where does your ideology go when you’ve just copped it in the neck?
    I also think that when the final day comes it’s not really going to matter what you think or what your opinions are. A little morbid I know, but it is my view.
    Anyway, enough rambling, and back to other issues, such as that band I currently play with, Bulldog Spirit. I’ve always been fascinated by the need to draw a line in the sand. As I said previously, anybody is welcome to come to one of our shows. I play drums for them because I love music, all kinds of music. I’ve got no interest in the band getting political, because my opinions are my own. It wouldn’t make any difference if I was playing ACDC covers in a dive bar night after night. I play music because it’s my passion, it’s my escape from the daily grind. As for the other guys, I’m certain they agree with me.
    That’s all for the time being. Joel.

  20. @ndy says:

    1)

    FBI Technician: What’s forget about it?

    Donnie Brasco: Forget about it is like if you agree with someone, you know, like Raquel Welch is one great piece of ass, forget about it. But then, if you disagree, like a Lincoln is better than a Cadillac? Forget about it! you know? But then, it’s also like if something’s the greatest thing in the world, like mingia those peppers, forget about it. But it’s also like saying Go to hell! too. Like, you know, like “Hey Paulie, you got a one inch pecker?” and Paulie says “Forget about it!”

    Sometimes it just means forget about it.

    2)

    Never lived in Easey Street.
    Angry People I know — in 1995, members and associates, wearing ‘The Only Good Fascist Is A Dead One’ t-shirts, acted as ushers at Nim Chimpsky’s address at Sydney Town Hall. “How we laughed”.
    Never been compared to Robert Smith from The Cure in either appearance or demeanour (except, perhaps, in terms of my affection for cats — and not even then).

    3)

    I get your point about SHARPs. I knew of a few who were members of the Socialist Party (nee Militant Socialist Organisation). A few weeks after I intervened in a dispute in the city involving a handful of this mob and the police, one of them walked past Barricade saying ‘ptoo ptoo ptoo’ as he gestured with his imaginary machine gun and also cried out ‘Kronstadt’.

    😆

    4)

    As for your own opinions… when I wrote: —

    ‘That was then and this is now’ is not an explanation, nor does it suggest anything other than the inevitable passage of time; certainly, no change or reversal in perspective is thereby indicated.

    — I meant that, simply because time has passed, that doesn’t necessarily mean, in and of itself, that your views have changed. So, if one assumes that you shared the opinions of your bandmates, at some point, and for some period of time, you espoused some version of neo-Nazi ideology. And that’s an assumption I do make, because the alternative is that you were grossly stupid — and you don’t strike me as being grossly stupid.

    Whether or not we agree on some things and disagree on others (including the obvious hypocrisy of governments), is very much beside the point, which is: you espoused neo-Nazism. In fact, not only espoused it, but actively promoted it. And the music you helped create continues to promote this ideology: to be sold, to be promoted, and to make money for neo-Nazi distros: Final Stand Records, FYMP, Micetrap, NSM88 and more besides.

    When provided with an opportunity to repudiate fascism, you refuse.

    My point is that whatever your opinions or beliefs are I don’t think it’s ok to butcher innocent people for them. I think if I was being stood up against a wall it would matter very little to me if the bullet was coming from a Communist or Fascist, or a Christian or a Muslim. Where does your ideology go when you’ve just copped it in the neck?

    You’re not stupid, and neither am I. It’s a cornerstone of Nazi philosophy — and er, practice — that ‘people’ must be butchered; only these people aren’t “innocent”. In fact, for obvious reasons, it’s very difficult to discover an ideology that claims the right to kill the ‘innocent’. Thus even Nazism justified the attempted genocide of Europe’s Jewish population by reference to the claim that the Jews were basically evil, aggressive, and determined to destroy the German nation, whether by way of Capitalism or Communism.

    The ideological descendants of Nazism, the neo-Nazis, listen to the music you freely and voluntarily helped to make. It was created precisely in order to reinforce neo-Nazi beliefs. In other words, to function as a form of neo-Nazi propaganda. Your music continues to help financially support neo-Nazi organisations. If you listen to this music, the music you helped to create, its mission is very clear.

    http://www.youtube.com/genocidal88

    You refuse to acknowledge this.

    In fact, there is absolutely no recognition on your part of any degree of responsibility whatsoever for your role in the promotion of neo-Nazi ideology. Instead, you try to gloss over this history by making the observation that as time passes, people change, some things are agreed upon and others aren’t, and by way of stating that “I also think that when the final day comes it’s not really going to matter what you think or what your opinions are. A little morbid I know, but it is my view”; morbid or not, I’ve no idea what you actually mean by this.

    For meditations on time and being, see Martin Heidegger, Being and Time. In the meantime:

  21. Voice of Reason says:

    Doug Smith isn’t a real skinhead! He was born into wealth and is just a tattooed yuppy who emulates the skinhead look. He epitomizes everything on the song “Fake” from Bulldog Spirit’s first album!

  22. @ndy says:

    Last Strike : Antifascist Skinheads

    Marching under swastikas and in the shadow of eagles
    Five beating one that is what they call having fun
    This brown disease spreads about in our towns
    Who will fight back? Antifascist skinhead!

    Antifascist skinhead, everyone who is not scared
    Let’s face nazis in antifascist struggle

    Beat the nazi bastards and punch them not only to their heads
    They must lie on huge piles in blood and dust
    Violence is the only language they can understand
    You will end up in a grave with white flag and smile on your face

    Antifascist skinhead, everyone who is not scared
    Let’s face nazis in antifascist struggle

    They would like to rule us and destroy our lives
    And worship Adolf or some other assholes
    But children of the working class mustn’t be scared
    They have to fight for their place in the world

    Antifascist skinhead, everyone who is not scared
    Let’s face nazis in antifascist struggle

    Capitalist or nazi, the same shit
    Kick them to their arses that’s the best propaganda
    I don’t need any Führer or any government
    I scream for no authority at all

    Antifascist skinhead, everyone who is not scared
    Let’s face nazis in antifascist struggle

  23. T86 says:

    Dug Smiff iz a fucking fag. Hiz mum worked for ASIO. I cannot understand why da fukkin nazis accept this stupid cunt who fucks non-wyte sheelaz!

  24. @ndy says:

    Um… right.

    *sigh*

    Doug’s sexuality, his mother’s employment history and so on are, as we both know, irrelevant, especially given that:

    1) He published what he alleged was my workplace address;
    2) He is the world’s leading expert on skinhead and;
    3) He has an intimate knowledge of the local (Melbourne) music industry.

    Everyone else is a clueless cunt.

  25. LukeTehSame says:

    lolz “he is the world’s leafing expert on skinhead”
    you’re a fkn moron at-ndy.

  26. @ndy says:

    you’re a fkn d00d LTS.

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